In which we discuss the relationships of the Nuclear Family, or the like. An important note: in the following Community Service conversation we held, we determined that the self community is the zeroth tier (Tier 0), and therefore the immediate family changed to be called Tier 1. This may help you transition from this conversation to the next one.
Recorded July 6, 2024
Show notes and links:
John Deloney, Ramsey Solutions https://www.ramseysolutions.com/shows/the-dr-john-delony-show
It appears we got the Oedipus complex wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex
Marriage Builders https://www.marriagebuilders.com/
John Gottman https://www.gottman.com/
5 Love Languages https://5lovelanguages.com/
“Burr in the Saddle” https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/burr
Beauty and the Beast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast
After all you can do. Grace. (Yes, NDM is Mormon. LS is not.) https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/25?lang=eng&id=p23#p23
The Fourth Turning (crisis), Strauss and Howe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory
Intimacy = into-me-see https://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/what-is-intimacy/
Transcript:
Jump to end
if you’re holding expectations for
somebody and they have no idea what
those expectations are then it’s not
going to be a emotionally close
relationship it will be a helicopter
parenting kind of situation but if you
if it’s clear what your expectations are
then it allows for those expectations to
be met
intentionally where do we start so the
idea is community service well the the
title community service so when you
think about that what do you think about
normally when I think about community
service I think about CT volunteer work
and policing yeah I tend to think about
a prison sentence or you know if you do
something wrong you’re you got to do
community service they go out and pick
up trash under the bleachers yeah
Community Service is like um a
punishment while you’re on probation
yeah probation punishment or it’s a
volunteer yeah a volunteer but it’s it’s
imposed it’s an imposed volunteer
service sentence right that they say
this is something that’s good if you
want your business to work you have to
go out in community service and that was
my issue and in my business building
life they say you’ve got to get involved
in number Community things actually I
was advised early to join Boards of of
uh when I was still in college maybe
before you were even
born he said go and join join the boards
of the boys and girls club and the YMCA
and get on those boards so that you can
serve and get and be known you got to be
known in the community is it a
networking thing a networking yeah it’s
networking Community Services a network
and then there’s like the community
cleanup days here in in my City where
they go out once a week and or once
every couple of weeks and just clean up
some person’s messy yard and they go and
bother the neighbors and say your yard
is too messy for us we’re going to help
you clean it yeah the person can be
happy or upset right which yeah I mean I
I know one that was upset yeah didn’t
they didn’t they don’t want you there
yeah that they had a real messy place
and and they were going to be fined and
the city was willing to help the
volunteers willing to help yeah well and
I can’t say they don’t they don’t always
not want you there that’s sometimes
they’re appreciative but sometimes they
just want to be left alone right I like
my yard the way it is and you’re
changing it all yeah so that’s what I
think that’s that’s what I mean
community service has has a meaning in
our culture in the culture yeah so it
needs to be changed okay what do you
think we change that meaning um the
community what a community is is the
people around you is that how me we
could find a definition yeah your
community like your individual Community
is the people in your life or the the
the people um around you in your
immediate vicinity you could like go
further out like you have your church
Community um within your church
congregation boundaries and then further
than that you got your City community
and here’s the the first definition of
the noun a group of people living in the
same place are having a particular
characteristic in common okay so like
you could have a broader community of
like of Americans right but no even
broader than that like I I am a badpiper
yeah so I am in a bagpiping community
that spans across the whole world right
you you have an affinity with people in
Scotland primarily well I mean let’s
just spell that that Scotland isn’t the
only place where bag pipes are but it is
it is the quintessential bagpipe area
yeah perhaps everyone relates Scotland
to bag pipes yes bag pipes to Scot most
people I guess anyone who would know and
maybe other people that know know that
bag pipes are made where are they made
by the way um all over the world
everyone makes bag pipes we have a
bagpipe maker in Bountiful okay all
right so you can make them anywhere
they’re not just a Scottish tool right I
think the origins of the great Highland
bagpipe are primarily Scotland that’s
that’s where that came from but there
were other instruments that were similar
in other countries but if we’re speaking
the one that I play then that’s a
Scottish origin but yeah so we’re
talking about community so Community is
just anything that you affiliate
yourself with right right or or they
they can be characterized it say it says
particular characteristics in Commons so
if you can characterize you can
characterize almost anything I mean you
can have a community they call a
community of geese a gaggle a community
of cows a herd yeah but those are all
communities so the first primary
Community is what’s in your body your
community of cells your community of
this is who you are your your person a
community of bacteria of bacteria yeah
beneficial bacteria and if it’s not then
you you’ll die anyway yeah so that’s the
first place to start the First Community
you serve is the one that’s your body
that that is you that’s the closest one
to whether it’s physical or spiritual or
emotional it’s the first Community your
your primary Community I guess said Kat
so your responsibilities to that
Community what are what are those Health
um yeah I mean maybe health is the only
one like you can you can Encompass
physical health and mental health yeah
that’s right what was is it John delone
he he said there is no mental health and
spiritual health and physical health
there’s just Health there’s just
Health it’s Health that’s what it is you
you’re taking care of everything
healthwise but you’re responsible 100%
for the health of your own body and for
the care of your own body right no one
else can be responsible for that and I
guess in in the event of disability
where you can’t care for yourself others
care for you right so you care for
yourself as far as your able so maybe
there are limitations to the community
you serve and how you serve it primarily
you’ve got to serve that community of
self if you don’t serve it appropriately
what are the limitations what are your
limitations if you don’t serve yourself
right um if you don’t or if you can’t
like if it’s just if it’s not served
yeah if if that community of self is not
served what happens um you fall into a
state of dis
repair your health is bad you can’t work
as properly as as you would be able to
otherwise diminished capacity diminished
capacity maybe maybe minimum diminished
capacity and maybe maximum you die I
mean the the the worst thing is that
your body stops functioning and you die
right so without proper care of the
community it has the ability to break
down to dysfunction or to die um so
anything that you can do to your own
Community inside your body can also be
done to any other community you can
consider okay so are you saying it’s a
universal principle correct serving
yourself is the same as serving your
your other communities in your life any
other community yeah I want to we want
to identify the universal thoughts in
regard to community the way the way
Society thinks about Community is just
way too too simple on the surface
nothing it’s nothing okay we’ve got to
make it something make it valid valuable
so valuable Community if you’re serving
your community you could also break your
community you can choose to embibe and
partake of substances that kill it
automatically okay and even say that
those things are good and I enjoy those
but if you’re drinking a poison or a
disinfectant cleaner like alcohol that’s
not going to help your community right
you’re a community of some
right will it affect your other
communities that you have like your it
might affect your family in some way but
how is how would it affect your
neighborhood yeah so as you look out
into the other expanses that you can go
to that’s that’s important but it I
think the only point I want to try to
create here is that you can effectively
damage your community in in one way or
another is what you’re saying you can
make effects that damage it that even
kill it I mean you could you could um
what suicide is the description of
damaging your personal Community
permanently permanently damaging right
so it’s possible to Suicide a person is
it it’s possible probably that same
principle so these you principles that
are expansive to all communities you
could do that too you could you could
suicide a group or a city a Nagasaki or
heroshima right did you just say you
could suicide it yeah oh okay
suicide you could make it die yeah if if
you’re going to use the word suicide we
better Define what that means because I
think that’s a hot word for a lot of
people okay why is it hot why is it
misunderstood there’s like trauma behind
it there’s there’s a history people
struggle with thoughts of suicide and go
through therapy to correct that so what
you’re identified as another Community
the community of conver ation you know
entering the conversation this is a
conversation so if if you’re saying
things that are incendiary that are
inappropriate that’s not serving the
community and you’re potentially
breaking it yeah by using a word that
hurts someone else because they may have
a a trigger based on that yeah so that’s
that’s a way that you can have you can
damage so every Community can be damaged
can every Community can be damaged yeah
I think you could say that every
Community could be damaged um however
could one person damage every Community
I believe that’s true as well could one
person damage every
Community like a Malu in your country or
a Hitler people know hether more
commonly or a Donald Trump depending on
which side of the coin you you you sit
and believe right so the community so
the First Community is yourself I I’m
just saying we it’ll it’ll expand to
everything okay so you have your first
Community as yourself what is what is
your second Community second Community
the first tier so I say that that’s your
point or what the primary primary is
yourself the first tier Beyond yourself
is your relationship um your spouse oh
your your intimate relationship your
first intimate relationship yeah your
first intimate relationship so if it’s
not a spouse it’s something you have
some intimate relationship your sister
your partner partner your sister your
sister yeah depends on if uh if that’s
your closest intimate relationship okay
what am I thinking of or or your your
mother or you’re you know if if you
happen to be um like say you’re you’re
not you don’t have a spouse or a partner
or any romantic relationship but you are
living with someone right and and your
and your a daughter living with her
mother the daughter mother is the
primary intimate relationship okay and
that so that would be different for
every individ individual person every
every person out there would have a
different second tier Community right
and it but it’s it’s the same intimacy I
think I think that was the right way to
describe it is it’s your first intimate
relationship it’s an intimacy as opposed
to a general okay so it’s a it’s an
intimate relationship and can you have
more than one I don’t know that you can
I’ve never experienced having more than
one but I mean like think about your
kids so I mean like if you have have a
nursing child if you’re a mother and you
have a nursing child right is that more
intimate than than the relationship with
your spouse than the husband wife
relationship at that time because the
nurturer primary the primary caregiver
for the first two or three eight years
of life depending on how long you
breastfeed that primary caregiver you’re
100% involved there right all day long
as opposed to going off to work I think
it’s a different relationship though I I
was still class that and how how would
you class those differently I mean we’ve
already established the first tier is
yourself the second tier is where it’s
the closest
person or persons maybe to you that that
you could say would be responsible for
the care of you or you would be
responsible for the care of them maybe
it’s maybe it’s split like I could say
my husband
is is my first my second tier my husband
is my second tier Community
because he is the next person in my life
that would be responsible for my
care however maybe the care that I give
it would be I would be most responsible
for my husband but also my kids well and
he’s responsible for your kids care as
well so I think it probably makes sense
the what do they call that the family
the nuclear family the nuclear family is
that tier two and and that’s people who
you’re responsible for or who are
responsible for you so you you enter
that as you need enough care the child
born needs enough care or perhaps a
grandparent would come back into that
relationship to that into that tier if
they’re the if the family become the
primary caregivers of that grand pant in
their home okay so that it’s it’s the
home it’s the primary care location met
tier
to okay so the the important important
concept here too is that you want to in
order to serve tier two you’ve got to be
complete in tier one your needs have to
be
met if tier one isn’t comfortable it
can’t if it’s depressed if it’s hung
over if it’s dysfunctional dysfunctional
or if it’s dying it can’t serve tier to
yeah or its capacity to serve as it is
hindered it it might be able to do a
little bit but it won’t be able to full
capacity serve to succeed and I don’t
know if success is an outcome
necessarily you won’t be able to get any
positive outcomes well I mean would you
not be able to get any positive outcomes
or it’ll just be less I mean I would say
nobody on the planet in history or in
future
eternities would be able to operate at
100% Health there’s always something
you’re working on to get better I mean
we know that as we as we talked before
the Horizon is receding the goalpost is
always moving away from you and so there
there would be no way to 100% be healthy
for yourself in order to serve your
second tier perfectly so is it possible
to disappoint in that second tier you’re
not going to be perfect you’re not going
to be able to show up 100% all the time
so when you don’t show up 100% does that
bother somebody else is it potentially
bother some well it potentially does but
that’s the responsibility of the
somebody else if they have expectations
of perfection then that’s on them
because the fact of the matter is there
will never ever ever be Perfection
expectations yeah are expectations good
I mean is that what intimate an does an
intimate relationship automat atically
have expectations yeah yeah I would say
they do okay and but then we have to
take that concept back to the individual
so back to the tier one the the the base
do you have expectations does it does a
body have expectations of its
owner um okay so we’re separating are
we’re separating the body and the Soul
what do you call it the capsule that my
intelligence is being carried in does my
cap still have expectations of my
intellect right that well your body
needs certain things I mean you need to
feed it right the body needs nutrition
and nutrition only comes from a couple
of different sources you you can you can
intravenously feed it or you can feed it
by eating something and letting your
digestive tract feed it I can’t I can’t
just think and make it be yeah you can’t
create food out of the air through your
skin I mean Vitamin D from the sun does
that work well Vitamin D it yeah it
might but as I’ve studied about vitamin
D the sun gives you not not enough uhuh
even if you’re out in the sun all day
long you don’t get enough from that yeah
your body needs more than that it needs
something from inter internalized
vitamin D as well but you get some so
that means that you can absorb nutrients
through your skin yeah like
photosynthesis if we were plants we’d
get all of our energy from from our skin
like plants and their Roots the
photosynthesis idea but we’re not we’re
not in that realm that Community a plant
Community would would work well I the
still needs food from the roots from the
soil right you still have to add calcium
and phosphorus and things like that
there’s a number of different ways that
the the individual Community needs
served and and has expectation and
that’s what causes the breakdown is if
it’s not served appropriate
right so if you don’t give it what it
needs it will fall into disrepair or it
will die right so that’s the same thing
you take that up to tier two with your
family your nuclear family there are
expectations a nuclear family has um
shelter protection perhaps you’re
sying you’re
equating the word expectations with the
word needs are those different how how
are they different I think
expectation might be an ex it’s a
cognitive conscious thing whether well
it might be subconscious it’s something
I mean it might be subconscious as well
but it’s something that you decide in
one way or another that you
want not necessarily that you need like
I expect
that what I expect
I mean I don’t know if I can say this
very well because it’s like you know I
you Haven thought that keep thinking
you’re going to get
there I expect that like my coffee is
going to be hot when I boil the water
and add it to the caraffe but I don’t
need it to be hot but that’s not really
an expect expectation that that’s a
cause and effect it’s a cause and effect
thing that’s automatic
there’s there’s no no option to that but
you you can expect that your dogs don’t
Mark you as you you said the dogs were
getting excited you had to go downstairs
but it was cold you expected it not to
be cold I knew it was going to be cold
yeah but you expected in the convers
when you scheduled this appointment or
this time frame when you said let’s
let’s do this you didn’t expect that
you’d be in a cold place that’s true I
did not expect and and you would also
not want to be in a cold place right so
are they are those different what’s the
difference of your expectation before
beforehand maybe expectation is a
beforehand thing and want is a now thing
well and and a need where does need
comes in there’s
necessities of life right what are the
bare necessities of your second tier
community and is that different from
it’s different from the wants absolutely
and that’s different from expectations
okay cuz you can you can lower your
expectations and live a happier life
yeah that’s what I thought if you try to
require too much of people then they’re
going to be disappointing and and that’s
annoying it’s annoying if people
disappoint what your expectations are or
might be yeah expectations are are
preset it’s some an idea you you imagine
something will go one way and that is
your expectations you’re I’m expecting
a package today whether it shows up or
not today is a different thing and if it
shows up it shows up that’s normal if if
you got it yesterday excited you’re
excited I guess if it shows up on time
exceeded expectations but then your your
expectation of the postal service if it
happens to becoming the Postal Service
you know that it’s you’re not you’re
going to be okay whenever they get it
there that you’re just happy they get it
there UPS if they say that they’re going
to be there and they’re not there then
you’ll be more disappointed in the UPS
you become concerned that perhaps they
delivered it to the wrong house right
right because they’re more reliable
generally that’s that level of trust you
have a level of trust with certain
Services yeah and you can trust this
service is going to be there if they say
they’re going to be there they’re going
to be there on at that time well this
person if he says they’re going to be
there at a certain time and he’s not
there then you start Wonder wondering
worrying what happened I was expecting
him yeah I’m expecting him and I I need
him there and I want to do what we’d
planned but now I’m I’m more upset other
people if you want something and you
need it and you expect it and it doesn’t
happen you say well that’s kind of the
way he is you begin to understand that
person as as unreliable okay let’s say
that is the person that’s in your
primary intimate relationship and that
person is becoming unreliable and you
lacking trust well then my expectations
of them have been changing too right but
can you lower your expectations
completely if if they if they go to zero
if your expectations go to zero do you
have an intimate relationship anymore um
no I don’t think because intimacy is a
joint thing it’s it’s a give and take
yeah or a serve and be served idea right
if you have you can’t have expectations
for something that you don’t know very
well or at all like perhap like the
people that live up the street for me
that I haven’t met I have no
expectations for what kind of people
they would be well maybe I maybe had a
little bit expectations I expect that
they’re not arsonists right because I
haven’t seen that kind of behavior yet
and that they’re not going to put their
trash in your yard right and so I do
have have some level expectation for for
them even though I don’t know them is
there anyone I have no expectations for
yeah you’re you’re you’re identifying a
further out Community yeah is there any
Community even further away from me that
I have zero expectations for the
community that you’re not a part of
there there are communities out there
well I am a part of the the world
Community yeah that’s right and I’m a
part of the universe community
if if there’s any other life out there
we still we still expect Beetle Juice
when it when it did explode 600,000
years ago or 650 years ago is all it is
that it’s not going to take us out as a
as an earth which is possible the gamma
rays May hit
us and we may lose our our environment
completely yeah so would you say that we
all have expectations there’s there’s
it’s impossible to have zero
expectations for something I think
that’s probably accurate it’s it’s not a
possibility to have zero expectations
okay primarily because you’re part of
every Community because you are
alive because you are if there is an is
it’s a community yeah and it and it’s
part of the community and it can affect
the community as well has expectations
and has the ability to meet or
disappoint expectations or needs right
so the closer your community is to you
then the more expectations there are um
inter interpersonally like
interdependently but in the within the
community there are more expectations
further away from yourself that you go
the less expectations there are right so
by having more expectations does that
bring a bring a community closer
is it can the the expectation and I
think we were talking about needs and
expectations and wants those three
things I think they’re all the same oh
you do if you increase those the if you
have a higher need for needs and
expectations and wants a higher if those
are higher then your community is closer
you can identify your community based on
how many expectations you have is the
expectations the cause of the closeness
of your community or is it a byproduct
and my opinion on that is it’s the cause
it’s causal so I can just have more
expectations for my neighbors and and
then they will automatically become
closer neighbors to me yeah your
neighbors but that’s taking you outside
so let’s stay with tier two L clear
family okay you can have more
expectations of your kids and they will
be closer to you because you more
expectations because I will become a
helicopter parent well and that scene is
a bad thing
right and if you do it wrong it is
helicopter parenting you’re just over
their shoulder all the time so you do
this but but still that relationship is
closer because there’s a helicopter
above your head all the time okay and
it’s and it’s more intimate it’s more
and maybe they hate you maybe it’s not
necessarily love it’s it there’s some
contention with it all right so it’s
it’s um spatially closer but it’s not
emotionally closer it wouldn’t be
emotionally closer it depends on if the
child loves helicopters that that is
true if it’s an edible if if it’s an
edital situation and he loves it and she
loves it then that’s that’s fine eatle
how do you say that eatle I don’t know
that word yeah edus um the the
helicopter mother oh a e e EA a e I
don’t know AE d i p I’m sing it in my
head so it’s it’s the helicopter parent
and child they they could just and that
could be you know I mentioned the the
daughter living with her mother maybe
that’s that type of relationship maybe
the mother is the one responsible all
the time and has just kept that daughter
safe and secure and sheltered dependent
and the daughter’s happy being dependent
and sheltered by the mother and so
that’s why they have that intimate
relationship yeah so younger children
absolutely love having their parents
hover over them and and be a part of
their life be a part of everything
they’re doing but then as the kids get
older they they like it less and they
want more privacy and and you also want
them to do that they you want them to
become independent ideally you do and
then still have the connection of love
but if your expectation is they’re not
going to go and break things you you
still the more expectations you have the
closer that relationship is in love and
respect as well that’s what I’m saying
so if they fully understand your
expectations as a parent and maybe you
fully understand their expectations as a
child they expect these things from you
you expect these things from them and
there’s a a clear understanding we’re
adding the clear understanding part the
Precision right or making it known
making making your expectations known
because like if you’re holding
expectations for somebody and they have
no idea what those expectations are then
it’s not going to be a emotionally close
relationship it will be a helicopter
parenting kind of situation but if you
if it’s clear what your expectations are
then it allows for those expectations to
be met intentionally and that’s the
Precision of speech that’s that’s making
sure that you’re displaying who you
really want to display what’s true and
what’s meaningful to your community if
you do that every time then the
community is going to be closer if you
never do that if you never display
what’s true and meaningful to you
they’re not going to know that about you
you’re not going to know that about them
and you’ll be living a parallel life
they’re living their valuable meaningful
life and you can live your valuable
meaningful life but if you never
communicate that it’s not going to be an
intimate relationship where you both
understand each other and and you can
join in excitements and joys and Sorrows
challenges you’ll just be dealing with
your own Joys and sorrows and challenges
without ever communicating yeah so what
happens if the expectations are clearly
communicated as far as you are thinking
like I I feel like I’ve communicated
these expectations clearly what if
they’re still not being met there’s
failure on the side of the expected yeah
of the intimate relation so the other
relation is still failing that what if
they’re not being met is that a is that
a problem so is that what you’re
identifying that that could potentially
be a problem or is it necessarily a
problem I suppose the correct question
would be is is it necessarily a problem
but I believe that most people would say
it absolutely is a problem and somebody
has to change somebody there has to meet
the expectations or somebody has to
lower their expectations for happiness
to have to to be present in this
community and and if in myself I’ve
identified what I believe is true and
what I believe is Meaningful and I’m
displaying that to my partner these are
the meaningful true things that I am
expecting and I’m putting this out and
if the partner does not provide that or
doesn’t agree that those are meaningful
to them and you say that’s not a match
there’s no there’s no intimate
relationship here so we’re not going to
continue dating okay but what if you’re
already married what if you have six
kids and you’ve been together for 25
years and expectations haven’t been met
so far but you’ve just been holding on
just in case or something I don’t know
and you’re hoping that things will
change and then finally you you get in
yourself and you say this is what I
believe is true really and I’ve thought
about this for 25 years and now in the
last 6 months I’ve really put it
together this is what I believe is true
and this is what I believe is Meaningful
and my partner here must can join with
this if we’re going to succeed and go
another 25 years or another six months
we’re going to have to get on the same
page with this understanding that I have
now and I’m relaying to him or her
specifically and appropriately in
precise speech yeah yeah what happens in
that situation and perhaps the other
person doesn’t meet that they’re like uh
this makes no sense at all I prefer to
spend all of my time
boating just like we’ve been doing for
the last 25 years I want nothing to
change I’ve got the three boats and
we’ve got three Lakes we go to and and
they’re fishing I’ve got to fish every
morning I’ve got a boat and and the
water scheme my buddies they need a
water scheme
and I’ve got to be out there sorry we
can’t talk today so you keep your
meaning in your truth that’s fine I
appreciate that but you keep it where
it’s been for the last 25 years in the
house and I’m going to go out but that’s
what that’s what was being identified
then is that why divorce happens because
someone finally comes up with a reason
irreconcilable differences that that
would be an irreconcilable if the if if
the one person says this is my lifestyle
this is what I believe is Meaningful and
I’m just going to stick with that and so
you’re coming up with something new I
don’t want something new I don’t want to
change that’s irreconcilable isn’t it
that would seem like that would be
irreconcilable if if the Boating and
everything was more important than a
relationship so intimate relationships
though being two-way the guy voting must
have thought she enjoyed boating yeah
and said you know you used to go out
with me all the time you’re not going
anymore she says well I I never really
liked it didn’t want to I was going
because I thought that we would get past
that phase with you and it appears
you’re not getting past
that so I just I can’t do it it’s not
fun for me and I’m not going to do it
anymore so they could agree at that
point that that part of their lives is
is independent and parallel that they’re
just going to enjoy different things and
everyone has those too don’t they have
things they’ enjoy differently in a
valid loving caring
second tier relationship intimate
relationship there are things that one
person enjoys that the other person
doesn’t necessarily enjoy there are some
parallel items in that what causes those
Intimate Relationships to continue and
not divorce this is um reminding me of
the marriage Builders uh website group
marriage Builders Group and their
website and as probably John gotman as
well but in order for a relationship
like a marriage to really work work
you’ve got to have something that you do
with your spouse that deposits into the
each other’s Bank their love bank that’s
a that’s a marriage Builder thing yeah
is that the The Love Languages and
things you’ve got to understand the
other person no it’s not a love language
thing it’s a it’s a it’s a separate idea
it’s you know you get deposits and you
get withdrawals and and so you have this
love bank and in order to build your
marriage you make deposits into your
spouse’s love bank and if you can find
something that both of you like to do
that deposits into both of your accounts
at the same time then that’s the most
ideal activity for both of you to be
doing together and that’s what causes
the relationship to have strength that’s
the the pillars that you’re standing on
or those things that you do together and
there if there are other things that are
outside of that they obviously exist
yeah like something that something that
your spouse likes if if your spouse like
likes boating then every now and then
you would go boating with them and
you’re depositing into their love bank
but they’re not depositing into yours
and so then every now and then they
would do something that you like to do
and then you’re getting love Bank
deposits but they’re not getting it
because they’re doing it for you they’re
depositing but they’re they’re not
getting any deposits into their bank and
so if you can find something that both
of you enjoy just as much as each other
that can deposit into both of them then
that would be even better than just
participating in in their
interests so yeah what if what if
expectations aren’t being met what if
love Bank deposits just aren’t happening
both ways an intimate relationship
is it’s got to be two ways and let’s say
there’s three kids and a parents all all
five of them must want to have the
situation improve in order for it to
improve that’s that’s the progression
that’s the receding Perfection they you
got to be attaining to a goal attempting
to become better at at something or at
everything at the relationship so if
someone decides to be as bad as they can
be and break that relationship can one
person can one child ruin a family or
can one parent one child one one
individual in that Community can they
destroy that Community one individual in
a in a in a te to intimate relationship
primary relationship one individual
break it by not providing needs and
trying to break it I think that’s
possible do we have any examples of that
I mean I can imagine I can imagine that
kind of so like perhaps with sexual
abuse situations within a family one
person might destroy the whole family in
that way and even not you know not
completely destroy but just based on a
proclivity for some inappropriate
behavior there’s an effect on the family
that’s continuous so it’s it’s it’s not
that they went out to destroy it
completely but they they’re just a
broken person and trying to fix
something or trying to deal with life
and or dealing with it incorrectly so
with that they have a an issue and that
creates an issue with the whole group
everyone yes and that issue is never
going to go away once it once it enters
it will always be there it’s there it’s
a bur in the saddle and it’s and it
continue to be there you can’t get it
out you can take a bur out of a saddle
but for some reason you can’t take you
know it’s there you try to take it out
you try to make it better but the effect
is already in place it it becomes a a
cancer that like a non-malignant cancer
that you can live with but you’re always
managing yeah there a a pain a small
pain that’s just always there you know
you got this glitch in my elbow and
that’s just what it is is it’s a glitch
we’re not trying to break these
relationships though we’re trying to
identify how to how to make it better
it’s it’s the Beauty and the Beast story
that we want to make better yeah even in
the face of the of the cancer how can
you strengthen your community yeah
you’ve got it you’ve got a cancerous a
cancerous Beast there that everyone
hates and everyone’s afraid of but the
beauty comes in and sees that there’s
something in there that can be redeemed
and redeems the whole situation yeah and
the Beast becomes the prince that it’s
supposed to be and and he changes so
that’s that expectation story though
what if what if the Beast doesn’t change
did the beauty waste her time or do she
then have to go on somewhere else I the
story doesn’t end that way and it would
be impossible to end that story any
other way you think so like she can’t
she can’t just be killed she can’t be
killed by the Beast the Beast can’t just
kill her or she can’t escape and then
Gaston succeeds in killing the Beast and
freeing the whole community and then she
marries Gaston and she just enjoys life
yeah and these these aren’t possible
conclusions to that story that’s a good
question you could think that
possibility but it’s it’s not there no I
don’t think it is I mean the story has
been written but I mean you could
imagine well it’s been written it’s
let’s let’s consider that that story is
not just a story that it’s there because
it’s been written through seasons and
different iterations and it’s an
archetypical truth okay but say it’s a
truth and that’s why it exists and
that’s why it’s classic it’s classic
because it’s a story that is true so as
as a true story in our typical story
that’s the only outcome yeah like the
tortoise and the hair there’s only one
outcome to the tortoise and the hair the
hair never wins that there’s no way and
and in life the hair will never win so
that’s why that’s an arc typical a true
story so Beauty the Beast tus of the
hair they don’t have any other endings
you can’t make the rabbit win no matter
how hard you try is that just because of
who they are on the surface it looks
like just that’s the way the author
wrote it so that’s just the way it is
and that’s what you were saying first
it’s because that’s the way communities
work love is okay and maybe this is it’s
an interesting I I don’t know I don’t
know fully I think once love is given
out it doesn’t have to be received but
it is out it’s there it doesn’t it
doesn’t disappear just like any damage a
person does in in a community is always
there any love a person displays is
always there as well so any positive
effect you put out if you’re putting out
a positive effect if Beauty goes into
the beast’s home and puts out enough
love and enough Beauty that’s going to
affect the Beast it it has no other
option but to affect the Beast and cause
him to look back to the flower you’re
saying enough enough okay is it
dependent on a certain amount or is it
just any out well it didn’t happen
overnight with Beauty and the Beast just
by the presence the presence of the
beauty just being there and maybe it’s
consistency enough yeah enough is yeah
it’s an interesting word because there’s
no definition that is that seven grams
or is it 10 years worth I don’t know
what enough is but it is something is it
is it guaranteed that there is an enough
whatever it is that there is got to be
enough all right that’s the that’s the
question I I believe that to be the case
it is guaranteed okay and that’s a hard
statement to make because you can’t
prove it but it is guaranteed because
there’s nothing you can do about it uh
after you’ve done after all you can do
well it’s a scriptural statement so it
after all you can do everything you can
do it’s still you can’t do it yourself
it’s still not enough right it’s it’s
not enough it can’t it can’t be enough
on its own but that invites the
community this sub Consciousness the
third being the the thing that we all
share
consciousnesses uh it invites That Power
from Beyond to make that connection I
got to mention in the in the fourth
turning I was just reading that recently
there’s there’s four phases what is the
fourth turning four phases of life it’s
um I don’t know straussen how it’s about
it’s about the cycles of life and that
life is a cycle life is it’s not a
linear and they they talk against it
being a linear phone the I don’t know I
can’t describe all the four four phases
but there are four phases when you get
to the end of the fourth phase though
you can do all the work up to that time
but then you can’t in ancient tradition
and in reality you can’t take the fourth
turning and move it into a first that’s
something that happens from the outside
okay that happens to you for you so
that’s the Beast so you go through all
the four turnings the fourth turn that
fourth turn isn’t going to happen until
some outside force makes it happen and
that’s ostensibly a God or a a spiritual
change some change some effect from the
outside and I’m not sure how they
describe that but it’s not something you
can do you can’t engineer turning from
the fourth back to the first that’s an
open space that sounds interesting yeah
if you if you try to do it linearly it
always goes to decline if you try to
stay in control it’s you’ve got to give
up control and I think that’s what
causes the change of the Beast is the
the control was given up and maybe
expectations you can have expectations
but if you try to doggedly push
expectations you become a helicopter
there’s no getting back you have to step
back and say this is my expectations and
this is my boundary and um good luck and
then the outside forces will come into
play and the child will no longer be a
drug addict perhaps and perhaps they
will just die a drug addict and it
didn’t tear the family apart it could
tear the family apart if they if you
tried to fully control it is that an
expectations thing trying to fully
control it try to make them do something
if you try to make the Beast eat the
beauty or something that just doesn’t
doesn’t work try to convince the drug
addict you know or keep them sheltered
oh yeah like curfews and and you’re
you’re going to stay in your room
until dinner and then after dinner you
go right back to your room we’re going
to put a lock on your window and alert
devices everywhere so that we hear on
our phones every time a door opens and
and this is the way we’re control your
behavior and if you do this one more
time the chain is there in the garage
and I’ve got a lock we have even further
control we can impose on you right and
we’ll bring you your food once a day and
you’ll be happy to eat it but still that
person a hunger strike could occur and
this person could be happy not to eat it
just because they’re completely
controlled and have no I mean that that
doesn’t allow them to grow is that still
if that kind of control if that kind of
situation was happening with that that
relationship with that Community still
be a second tier do you still have that
type of closeness that’s that community
service expectations responsibilities
between the two people control meaning
meaning imprisoning them and controlling
like all of their behaviors in order to
like I mean that the idea is that you’re
doing that because you want to make them
health healthy you want to prevent them
from doing the harmful behaviors that
are going to destroy the relationship so
if you place so many controls on it is
that relationship still an intimate
relationship or is it drawing apart
during that time of detox I mean I
suppose you’ve got to be doing other
things in conjunction with this control
family movie nights and things like that
maybe use the the word subjective
everything’s subjective we have the term
but that’s um everything is subjective
and and it all depends control you can’t
absolutely control so you’re
subjectively going to control you’re
going to control what you can control
what you can effect but it if it doesn’t
work you have to be able to adjust so
you have to be able to learn the truth
you have the meaning you have is never
going to be held by someone else you can
communicate it as well as you can as
well as you need to be but it’s not
going to be they’re not identical
they’re subjective subject to that other
person’s feelings and thoughts and
history so a person that’s trying to
control trying to do the best for the
family is also going to be able to break
that family so the person doing as worst
as they can is going to be bad that’s
the one side of the pendulum as bad as I
can be
the person that says this is the truth
you’re going to follow it you’re going
to tyranny is also a breaking idea so
the only Optimum thing is help me learn
let’s learn let’s change together let’s
change things let’s see what what didn’t
work in that how did I offend you with
with that statement when I said suicide
so let’s learn let’s learn not to use
those words let’s learn what the
expectations are yeah for the community
learn the expectations you hear them
mine I’m going to hear yours and we’re
going to talk about you know we’re going
to learn and change a little bit at a
time so that we can continue the
intimacy and and that’s what intimacy is
intimacy you’ve heard that before no I
haven’t heard that before intimacy
you’ve got to be able to see the other
person and if you’re willing to look
that’s what the intimacy is it’s it’s
looking into the other person and seeing
what they actually meant what their
feelings are and their needs and and
then being able to to change and work
with those okay so how how then do you
what would you say is the best way to
maintain the health of your second tier
Community right because we identifi not
it’s not to try to control it
tyrannically and it’s not to try to
break it maliciously love is how it’s
all based right it’s it’s all that
condition to love you’re going to put a
condition you’re going to say if you do
this I’m going to love you but I’m going
to love you anyway even if you don’t do
that but I would love it if you would do
this I would love it even
more they’ll say they’ll say well you
know I’d love to be loved but I love
this more than I love that so I think
it’s a love it’s a love thing depends on
where you want to you spend your time at
what you love and if you really love
boating you’re going to spend your life
life boating but if you really love your
spouse or your family and you say you
know I can let go of boating for seven
more years until the kids are out of the
house then I’ll go back to it so you
you’ll determine what you you actually
love more and that determines what your
community is then is that how you decide
who is in your nuclear family quote
unquote because I mean perhaps you some
people say like th this is my family of
choice my best friends and we get
together like nearly every day you know
so that would be your nuclear family
that would be your second tier Community
if you spend much more time with them
than you do with the people that you
live with maybe so that that second tier
I mean we’ve already identified that
that second tier is the people that you
care for next after yourself right and
there may be others invited directly
into that I mean I’m I’m thinking of
friends of children in your house get
generally adopted as part of the family
part of that nuclear relationship and
they just become and you love them just
like you love your kids and they’re
they’re still part of I mean they’re as
much part of family is as the organic
children yeah and they know they’re
adopted and you you just work them in is
it possible that an adult could do that
too that a friend a neighbor could be
that close that you’re always talking
and it’s appropriate you have it
barbecues every Friday you’re just close
so subjectively that second tier is
individual to the individual people and
that is who you who you serve and care
for next after yourself and does
expectations the expectations are more
for this group than for than for your
communities that are further away from
you than for any other group yeah and
and there are further communities away
so that one that one has the most
expectations you have lesser and lesser
expectations the further you get away
from that yeah that one has the most
expectations the most most love someone
with zero expectations is your furthest
away here of community
so your first Community you’re
responsible for responsibility is
important in there too you’ve got the
the requirement to respond as well as
the desire to respond to those
expectations to those needs you’re
required to respond to yourself in the
tier one in the Cher two with your
nuclear family you’re required to
respond there as well and that group and
it’s not necessar as much you don’t have
to you don’t have to feed each body in
there it’s not like a a mother and or a
bird bring back the food every day not
necessarily except that is what
breastfeeding is right you’re their
whole sustenance comes from the mother
yeah maybe maybe when you’re nursing a
baby they’re pulled into your self
Circle your your self Community for a
time they’re still a part of you because
you’re when they’re inside when they’re
inside of you that’s you I mean the
first nine months they’re still there so
it’s the next nine months or a year
however long until they’re on their own
until you actually detach and someone
else can take care of them so you’ve got
that primary relationship they can take
care of themselves to a degree and to an
increasing degree and that’s where
you’re Le lessening control over them
and and letting them be more independent
and more connected to these expectations
and love connected to the love scene as
opposed to the requirement so that tier
as soon as they graduate from the home
they get their jobs they get everything
else then they move into a third tier
yeah they’re no longer you’re no longer
directly responsible for their health in
any way that in any way in some way
still there’s still a relationship but
it’s not that nurturing primary
expectations needs wants desires they’re
they’re not all not that strong they’re
less they’re a lessening desire and want
and need the person is going to go off
and get their own apartment and work
their job and they’re going to do what
they do and so you you still may talk
every day but you’re not going to have
requirements every day of what are you
eating for dinner we’re having spaghetti
come over have spaghetti with us you
don’t you don’t have to do that you’re
not doing that all the time the
expectations are a lot less so that
that’s necessarily based on expectations
the causal relationship because you’re
low expectations that shoves them out
into a a third tier okay less
expectations less
responsibility Same Love right well
still love Still Love Not the Same Love
though it’s not the what is it different
love yeah I don’t know we haven’t really
talked about that what’s the what’s the
idea of Love unconditional conditioned
love you’re not you’re not putting as
many conditions on it so it’s not as
conditioned a love that’s maybe more
unconditional love at that point okay
the further away the further away you
can put someone the less conditions
you’re going to have on them you I’m
going to love you more if you do this or
try to place a a condition yeah that
implies there’s expectations and yeah
less expectations you’re going to let
them be independent when you let someone
else be independent you’re not trying to
have an intimate relationship with them
anymore so the intimacy is decreasing
and and hopefully a husband and wife you
know the marital relationship isn’t
going to decrease in intimacy but if it
does then that’s what causes separation
and causes moving away but a child is
automatically going to gain more in more
more Independence and less dependence
less intimacy and as that intimacy
decreases that’s what necessitates a
third tier and your second tier is still
the husband wife sitting in the house
the empty nesters then become the second
year that has to figure out now what are
we going to do that’s just us and then
when and then when your spouse passes
away then you feel empty you feel lonely
and you need to find a way to have more
people or more creatures I guess you
could get a dog
you fill that space you would you say
that it’s reasonable to have nothing in
your second tier or is that always
something that needs to have some
responsibility in it yeah do you have to
have a second tier an intimate
relationship the where humans built the
scripture identifies it’s not good for
man to be alone yeah so that was the
that’s oural State our typical statement
so if it’s probably not good not healthy
if that if that’s an archetypical story
just like Beauty and the Beast and the
Tortoise and the hair then it it can’t
happen it’s not healthy you’ll die if
you’re alone no man is an island so you
got to have an intimate relationship
even if with just with a dog a pet and
if not a a roommate at the at the or a
best friend at the Care Center or a
nurse that talks to you all the time
yeah and it I mean has hasn’t it been
shown that people live longer if they
have those kind of social relationships
yeah well I and I don’t know that
specifically but grandparents moving
back in with kids or you know your
elderly mother that’s a a valid way
that’s the way it’s the way families do
it my family’s always done that in my
history or what I understand and in
certain socities it’s always that way
that when a an elderly person gets
ailing you don’t put them in the in the
nursing home you bring them to your
house and take care of whatever they
need and you become the caregiver and
the intimate relationship they become
Again part of your intimate nuclear
family and if they can wash dishes you
let them wash dishes and then you rewash
them because they can’t see
anymore that’s part of caring for them
let them have
responsibilities I hope my kids do that
for me and that’s that’s just part of
the family planning that’s part of the
estate plan is that the plan that you
have or do you want to create enough
money so that you can put them in a home
and keep living your independent life or
you invite them back into your tier two
I guess if you really understand this
tier two you want them invited back into
your tier two there’s no reason to not
increase the love at that point when
they get older even if you have to hire
maybe you you plan to have enough money
to hire a a nurse
to come and take care of the parts that
you don’t like taking care of to be in
in your house with you and the and the
old people and your kids and maybe at
that time you you know your empty
nesters anyway they’re not they’re not
necessarily moving back into a family
with kids right they’re moving back into
a tin family some grandparents that now
have their elderly mother or father
living with them so the tier two does it
have to be there I think it does it’s
necessary I think it does too I I think
that makes sense that makes it’s
rational that um it’d be the healthiest
the healthiest version of the tier 2
would have someone in it the the alive
version so healthiest otherwise it’s
dead can you kill a tier two if tier two
dies then is tier one tier one is
probably at risk if you don’t have a
tier two so that’s how they connect is
You’ got to have a tier two for tier one
really to be fulfilled to be success to
be healthy for tier one to be healthy it
needs a tier two okay they’re like
interdependent everything’s connected
and we we we probably don’t have time to
go to tier three yeah or four but but
tier one and tier two they’re they’re
they’re connected they are necessary for
each other and before you can serve tier
two you’ve got to be comfortable you are
confident and successful in tier one we
determined if tier one is broken you
can’t really be an effective part of
tier two right you could be a part of it
but it wouldn’t be effective the benefit
of you you wouldn’t be beneficial to
your tier two it’s not progressing as
quickly not progressing as quickly so
you know what I’m thinking that tier one
again the disabled person that’s a tier
one there’s as much love there’s as much
care there but it’s it’s a person that
needs care as opposed to the person
that’s giving it yeah they they can give
love maybe everyone’s just as happy and
that’s what I always said about disabled
or you know down Central there’s more
love in that home than than any other
home with a Down syndrome or a disabled
individual because expectations are
there’s less expectations well you’ve
got appropriate expectations for the
disabled person but the disabled person
has 100% expectations for the caregiver
and the caregivers are meeting those and
if they’re meeting them then that
increases the that they they meet him
with love now I guess they could also
chain that person to the wall so they
wouldn’t walk away you can abuse a
disabled person that can be they can be
abused as well so it it doesn’t have to
generate love goodness then that that
goes against what I just said about the
the stories the Beauty and the Beast do
we know of situations where a disabled
person hasn’t generated love well there
are plentiful document
on Netflix that you can see where that
kind of thing has happened about what
about people who are disabled in some
way or another being taken advantage of
or abused by someone else by by their
caregivers okay so that does happen so
maybe my uh polanish view of the stories
isn’t accurate malevolence is in the
world and there are people that do want
to break that and eat the beauty the
beasts do want to eat the beuty all
right we’re going to have to come back
to this this is important right we got
to get to the next step yeah that’s
that’s tier one and two they’re they’re
connected and you yeah maybe there’s a
third part of it’s a triangle because
you’ve got you got someone who’s trying
to break it and that’s malevolence I
guess maybe it is only two it’s it’s
tyranny trying to ultra control it or
malevolence trying to ultra break it and
you can do that um so that is the
documentaries you were talking about of
abusing your primary
relationships on purpose or making them
do things that are not appropriate so
love is the the main thing love and care
and concern the middle of the road give
and take and working with an intimate
intim me seeing what’s going on and
making decisions appropriately with each
other and in order for
for that to work I mean that’s what
makes the tier 2 work if the tier 2
isn’t working if there’s no one to do
that with the tier one is going to have
a problem with itself got to be able to
share and sharing and giving love is
part of our being part of our
requirements that makes sense probably
as much as eating and nutrition we have
to be able to give love all right well
thank you for the conversation have a
nice day okay bye
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