In which we explore what difference there may be between immortality and eternal life.
Recorded December 19, 2024.
Show notes:
Topical Guide, LDS
Immortality – Wikipedia
Hayflick limit – Wikipedia
Altered Carbon (TV Series 2018–2020) – IMDb
The 100 (TV Series 2014–2020) – IMDb
Dracula – Wikipedia
Three Nephites on earth 3 Nephi 28:38-40
Ted Williams Frozen In Two Pieces – CBS News
UK teenager wins battle to have body cryogenically frozen
Hypothalamus – APA Dictionary of Psychology
Tuck Everlasting (2002) – IMDb
“You can’t have living without dying. So you can’t call it living, what we got. We just are, we just be, like rocks beside the road.” – Tuck Everlasting
The Good Place (TV Series 2016–2020) – IMDb
“As man now is, God once was: “As God now is, man may be.” – Lorenzo Snow
Elemental (2023) – IMDb
Transcript:
Jump to end
[clip] This is all religious stuff because I think really immortality and eternal only frame
on religious.
I don’t think any psychologist ever came up with, I mean, what they’re talking about
is force of life maybe.
So they still see there’s an ethereal spirit as part of us.
John the Beloved was given life until Christ returns.
There are three Nephites in the Book of Mormon, which were given that same gift that John
requested to live.
[introduction] Hey there, this is our podcast, Do You Have a Minute?, in which my dad and I dive into
deep discussions about both the most profound and most mundane questions of life.
While we know we don’t have all the answers, probably none of them actually, we are opening
our minds to new perspectives and most importantly we are having a good time in conversation.
Join us as we explore the unknown together.
[conversation] Hey, do you have a minute?
Yeah.
Right now?
What are we discussing?
I want to talk about immortality.
You know, I did a little study on immortality.
You did?
And eternal.
Tell me about that.
Immortal and eternal.
No, I don’t want to tell you about it.
It’s six pages long, a little study.
Here, let me show you.
See, it’s this style of study.
Oh, and you just wrote down every thought that you had about it?
Everything I ever knew.
Because I feel like being a member of the LDS Church, immortality is a pretty prominent
feature.
So, of course, you’ve been studying that topic for 50, 60 years.
Here’s how I prepared.
This is the topical guide, immortality and eternal life.
So I just went through the topical guide, every verse, and learned.
I just went through a compass of that’s what it taught me.
Okay, remind me what the topical guide is.
You take a topic, immortality, and it uses all the verses in all those four standard
works of immortality.
And the standard works of the LDS faith, right?
Correct.
The standard works of the LDS faith.
Okay.
So why did you come up with the question?
I didn’t want to get into directly where I studied.
Where did you study?
I was trying to figure out why people in the general Christian faith don’t consider LDS
as Christians, even though the LDS members are like, we are absolutely Christians.
Right.
And somehow that led me to discovering that immortality is different than eternal life.
And I don’t think I’d ever considered that.
There’s the idea that eternal life is something that you get when you go to the highest level
of heaven and that’s eternal life.
But immortality is still given to every single person, whether they believed in Jesus or
not.
All right.
So your question, it comes from a strictly religious base.
Is that right?
My question first came from that.
Yeah.
And you know, I don’t ever think one thing about something.
I’ve been exploring this in my head and in some research for a few weeks now.
Well, it’s been since the beginning of November is when I first started thinking about it
and talking that I do want to think about what you believe is immortality.
Let’s not go to eternal life yet.
Let’s think about immortality.
So what I’ve known, and if we can talk just as life people, as human beings, instead of
religious concept based what one faction teaches about it.
As a human, I’ve looked at immortality.
Is that, so let’s cover that first.
That’s got to be opposite of mortal.
So you’re mortal or you’re immortal.
Right.
And if you split the body and the soul, you could say you’ve got a mortal body and an
immortal soul.
Okay.
So the immortal is something that’s not physical.
And I think that plays out to have an immortal mortal body.
Does immortal just mean not physical?
It could mean just that.
Immortal implies that it lasts longer than when your body is, it lasts longer than your
body’s life.
It’s not just ethereal.
You’re identifying that it is something in the ether, in the spiritual realm.
It wouldn’t be immortal.
It’s something that lasts longer than your body lasts.
But it doesn’t just last longer.
It lasts forever.
And immortal would mean never dying?
Never have an end.
You’re identifying a concept that we just read here on Wikipedia and we’ll link this
thing is biological immortality due to an apparent lack of the Hayflick limit.
Hayflick.
The Hayflick limit, it says, it’s a phenomenon is the number of times a normal somatic differentiated
human cell population will divide before cell division stops.
So when that cell division stops, then you die.
There’s no more mortal continuation in the physical realm.
It’s got to be a physical thing.
So the Hayflick limit, the division of cells is strictly a mortal physical thing that happens.
We don’t know what division of cells in the spiritual realm might be.
If there are any cells in a spiritual realm.
Right.
And your, does energy have substance?
If anything has substance, it’s got cells, right?
Or can cells be separated from substance?
I mean, I like we were, we were taught as we discussed whether their self-awareness,
whether your is your conscious consciousness.
We’ve talked about that before too.
Is your conscience, your conscious consciousness, a physical thing?
Right.
Or is it immortal?
Is your consciousness immortal in that respect?
It’s not alive.
It’s not tied to a physical idea or physical structure.
Yeah.
I’m thinking back to our dualism conversation, the philosophical part of it, where, where
the, there’s a theory that body and soul are two separate substances.
And like, I think the theory is that the soul can be measured just as you can measure a
body that’s something that can be observed and weighed maybe, even though we haven’t
figured out how to yet.
It’s, it’s there.
Our being is there.
Well, you talked about energy.
You might consider the soul as the energy force inside of a body.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
And think about, think about the dead bodies at the cemetery.
Those are bodies without consciousness, without whatever it is that makes, that keeps, not
that keeps us alive, but that it is with our aliveness.
Right?
Okay.
So if you consider that energy or that life force, the spirit, the spirit, spiritual,
immortal side of us.
Yes.
If you go into a coma, you can be conscious inside of your body, even though your body
is in a coma.
Is it possible to go into a coma or to escape, have your spirit escaped your body?
That’s what they call near death experiences.
The spirit apparently goes out and still retains memory from outside the body, or can look
back and see the body laying there on the, on the rack.
But is, is that spirit completely separated from the body at that point?
Or is it, I don’t know if it’s, because the body is still alive, potentially being worked
on.
And they are still with their body.
Yeah.
The body is still alive.
The brain dead is a body that is alive and yet has no activity in the brain.
They can’t measure any, anything going on in there.
And I think that’s how people see that there is a spiritual thing is because they see the
activity and it’s governed by something, but it’s not, they don’t, I mean, how do you,
how do you make those synapses click?
Right.
Transfer information.
How are they stimulated?
That’s deeper than we want to talk about this.
I think scientifically we’re just identifying there is, there is a spirit that’s immortal.
Can you kill the spirit without killing the body?
That’s an interesting question.
Someone who says they’re depressed.
Their spirits been damaged.
We say that that’s common language.
Sometimes you’ve hurt their feelings.
They have a broken spirit.
Broke the spirit.
And you, is there a colloquialism, a statement that says you’ve killed their spirit?
Their spirit has been killed.
You killed the spirit.
That sounds like just demotivated.
It’s I, I used to be, there’s no will motivated about this thing, but now some, something
broke my spirit and, and I’m, I’m not, I don’t care anymore.
Yeah.
I don’t have any will to do that anymore.
It’s a past.
Yeah.
I don’t, I don’t know if you could, I mean, you’d have to separate it, a spirit from
the body in order to kill it, I guess.
I’m reminded of a TV show on Netflix.
It’s called Altered Carbon.
And it’s the idea that you can download your consciousness into like a device and that
in some way gives you immortality and then you can just implant that device into a new
body that doesn’t have a consciousness.
So you become, that body becomes you.
That body was never, maybe, maybe it was someone else.
I don’t remember, but.
Well that’s, that’s the same idea, what, the 100 Netflix series.
We talked about that before where, where there’s these, the captains or the leaders were input,
their consciousness was put in this little pod or something that went to the back of
their neck and locked in.
And then you had all 10 leaders consciousness inside of you, the new leader.
Hmm.
That must have happened long after I quit watching that show.
Yeah.
It probably came out, there’s, I don’t know, there was maybe eight seasons in the show
and it was about the season three or four that you start seeing about that and what
that means.
Okay.
You know, who the, who the leader of the people on the earth are supposed to be and how they
got that information.
But they were able to pull the, all the consciousness, all the spirit into this little device then
that integrated back into the next person.
And so you had your spirit, plus you had that other person’s spirit and the other person’s
spirit inside of your consciousness.
So the, the supposition there was that you can identify the spirit and capture it and
keep it alive after the mortal body is dead.
So science fiction that way, that’s a science fiction idea that you can capture it.
We know it’s there.
We know it disappears.
I wonder where the first science fiction writers, the first, the first writers of this type
of science fiction got the idea.
Were they thinking about immortality after death and considering?
I wonder if we could make it so that we’re immortal before death.
I don’t know.
Which would mean, what would it mean to be immortal before death?
You’re a vampire.
Well, was Edward?
Edward colon.
Yeah.
Are they, are they dead or are they alive or are they immortal?
So they’re immortal.
They’re alive.
Well, they get bitten and I guess they go through a process of a transition.
Yeah.
That’s another series that I haven’t seen in a very long time.
I know there’s a, just recently in our local theaters, they did a Twilight marathon.
Yeah.
Which is, you know, it’s always fun to go and do a marathon at the movie theater, but
I’ve been indoctrinated too much by the, by the internet telling me that that whole story
is a piece of crap.
I don’t know.
Okay.
So vampires are, so that’s an immortal on life on earth and they can still be killed
though.
That’s the thing is they’re living and so they can still be killed.
How can they be killed?
Again.
With a wood stake to the heart.
Is that?
Yeah.
And in one, one scene, one of them gets their head cut off and that was, that killed him.
So that was it.
So separate the head from the body.
And if they damage the body enough, then, then they die.
Okay.
Or if they walk out in the sun, doesn’t that burn in the death too?
Yeah.
But in the, in the Twilight series, they’re definitely sparkly.
They just get sparkly.
I don’t know what else happens.
Right.
They, they do everything when it’s, when it’s cloudy outside.
Yeah.
Maybe they can, they melt in the sun, just like the wicked witch melts in the water.
Right.
That was Wizard of Oz, wicked witch of the West was burnt to death.
And she potentially, well, she was powerful.
I don’t know if she was immortal.
That’s not an immortal idea.
Vampires though are immortal ideas.
And in Dracula and all the old stories, you know, the first time that came out, I don’t
know, Dracula was written a long time ago.
Yeah.
I don’t know when or by who, but the story was you had to have a wooden stake to the
heart in the form of a cross.
Perhaps I think that was.
Yeah.
He, he created that, what, Bram Stoker or something like that.
He created the story, the mythology.
Did he create it though?
Because he probably got it from something else or did he hear it from somewhere else?
And probably it started earlier.
An older myth.
Yeah.
So I haven’t heard much about that or vampire ology, but as, as far as immortals, I think
vampires are on the line and I, I won’t identify it.
Maybe we can put it in where, where it came from.
We know of the John in the, this is all religious stuff because I think really immortality and
eternal only frame on religious.
I don’t think any psychologist ever came up with, I mean, what they’re talking about is
force of life maybe.
So they still see there’s an ethereal spirit as part of us.
John the beloved was given life until Christ returns and. There are three Nephites in the Book of
Mormon, which were given that same gift that John requested to live in the Doctrine and Covenants.
Somewhere later, it describes what happened to them.
And I don’t want to read it specifically, but just in general, it says there was a change
made upon them.
So in order to get to that point that you can have eternal life, maybe I do have to
find it because.
Okay.
So when it, when they first were given that is this, this is just my writing.
So what I’ve said about it, three Nephites were to remain on earth and so they are mortals
are they still subject to corruption.
And that’s one thing that I went into that we want to talk about in just a bit.
I won’t necessarily go into it now, but immortality means you are eliminated from corruption.
Corruption can affect you.
So really?
Yeah.
So immortality doesn’t come until Christ returns.
Except for those three Nephites and John the beloved.
Right.
Are they always in jeopardy?
How did they live as mortals for those thousands of years without falling?
No intermediate gift is noted to protect their mortality.
So if you’re living as a mortal longer than an immortal life, you’re in jeopardy that
whole time on a religious standpoint.
So that was my question in third Nephi 28 28.
Then it got down to the answer, which was third Nephi.
Yeah, it’s 28 36 to 40.
He gave the answer.
So it’s just later in that chapter.
They were cleansed for mortality to immortality.
Cleansed from is the word they used that the scriptures used.
Cleansed from mortality to immortality, but not the full change, just the cleansing.
So they were not subject to corruption.
So it did describe in the same thing, the Book of Mormon described both things, the
question of how did that happen?
And then they were changed specifically cleansed for mortality in that Satan had no power over
them, has no power over them to tempt them or to fall into a transgression.
But they’re not fully immortal.
The second half of immortality, which is, I don’t know what that would be.
The cleansing, cleansing is one part of it.
What’s the second part of it then?
I don’t know.
Where in the, do you know where in the Book of Mormon this appears?
Yeah, it’s third Nephi 28.
Okay.
So which, which Nephi is it that’s writing this down into the golden plates?
Well, this is Nephi way after, this is after Christ comes into this story.
Third Nephi is probably 400 years before Moroni who compiled the plates.
So yes, that’s, that’s where we’re talking right now.
That’s third Nephi.
He lived when Christ showed up in the meridian of time.
And then 400 years later, Moroni compiled this a Mormon, his dad compiled it into the
book in the golden plates and buried in the hill.
Yeah.
Nephi, son of Lehi is writing this down.
No, the brother of Lehi.
The brother of Lehi?
This is, this is Nephi, Nephi, the son of Lehi who started the Book of Mormon at 600
BC, 600 years earlier.
This is 600 years after that, the meridian of time that Christ shows up.
Third Nephi happened 600 years after I Nephi being born of goodly parents.
Correct.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
So this is another Nephi.
You’ve got 600 years.
His name just happens to be Nephi because he’s named after and his brother was named Lehi.
How, how creative.
How creative.
Exactly.
How interesting to put that in the storyline, but it is.
So that’s where they described it.
He described the people, those three Nephites who asked to be immortalized and still stay
on the earth.
And so they received half of the blessing of immortality in the cleansing from mortal
mortality.
So is there anything other than, we can go into that and there’s a lot to talk about
with what I’ve just studied through, but is there anything from the outside of the religious
aspect of immortality?
Like scientifically, is that what you’re suggesting?
Yeah, scientifically, what do they call that?
Anecdotally with what we experience, the common life experience of immortality.
We don’t experience vampires or zombies.
In real life, we don’t really encounter anything that lives without end.
Everything seems to die.
They did just discover bacteria in the ice shelf of Antarctic or something.
Antarctic, Antarc, Antar, how do you say that?
Antarctica.
I don’t know.
Antarctica.
Antarctica.
Say it the incorrect.
Don’t say it the way you spell it.
Like February.
No one says February the right way.
I always say February.
See how I, how I blend it so well.
Clothes.
February.
Antarc.
Antarctica.
Antarctica.
I don’t even know if that’s really where they found it, but they did find bacteria that
is much older than they had ever seen anything living.
It’s alive still.
It’s alive now after being frozen for many, many thousands of years or however long.
Thousands of millions of years.
Yeah.
And so that is opening up the possibility of at least living, like being able to be
frozen.
I mean, yeah, being able to be frozen and come back to life later, though you still
have to die at some point, even though you come back to consciousness.
That’s cryogenics.
Right.
And who is it that has frozen themselves?
A lot of people, I think.
I think a lot of people who have enough money to do it have done it because why not?
Like you’re dead anyway or whatever.
Yeah.
Might as well keep you in the freezer.
I heard of a story where somebody was dying of cancer and they did a fundraiser to earn
enough money to have their consciousness, their brain saved for the future when we’re
going to have medical advancements and scientific advancements to make it so that you can be
alive again.
You can live again.
Right.
And that is immortality.
They’re trying for that.
Cryogenics is used for that purpose.
Yeah.
So what they did, what they described was done was after she took her final breaths,
she died naturally.
The cryogenics transhuman team, they came in and like really quick, they had to be there
immediately so that things don’t start to actually decay.
But they came in and severed her head from her body and then froze her head.
Like her head is where they believe is where her consciousness is.
Right.
And that’s what you can say, it was Cleon Skousen in what he was describing.
He was saying, where are you?
Some people point to their chest, I’m right here.
But really if you think about where you are, you’re directly behind your eyes in the middle
of your head.
Down there, your chest is down there, there’s an up, there’s a back, there’s something.
And your eyes are still even in front of you.
Your eyes are in the front of your face.
So you’ve got to identify where you are and what’s down, your neck is down from where
you are.
Your hair is up.
So if you just think of where you are in the world, you’re right in the middle of your
head, right behind your eyes in the middle of your head.
And I recently read something, scientifically they described that area and what it does,
what it is.
I think we talked about it a little bit in the past, I don’t recall exactly, but that
spot.
It was what, that was 40 years ago that I heard Cleon Skousen in a recording, identify
that’s where you are.
You’re right there in the middle of your head.
So cryogenics took that concept, that idea for certainly that’s where you are.
They didn’t hear it from him, but anyone can decide it, define that.
And they said, well, let’s just keep the head, then keep the brain.
Okay, so immortality, we still haven’t figured out if that’s part of life or if it’s separate
from life.
Well, we determined that it’s a goal.
It’s enough of an idea that scientifically we’ve decided to identify it as a goal.
People want it.
And we’ve decided here’s a way that you can do that.
Since we found these bacteria that lived being frozen, Captain America, he was frozen and
he came back alive from a frozen state.
As I remember Marvel comics.
So he came back from a frozen state, was found after however long.
Fifty years or something.
Well, it was from World War II to the 2000s.
Of course, our Jurassic Park is all there on that island in the Pacific because of frozen
live organisms, frozen dinosaurs.
Right.
What other media shows immortality?
What Tuck Everlasting, how about that?
They found the Fountain of Youth and they have to keep drinking it to stay youthful.
Yeah, he wasn’t a vampire.
He didn’t.
Tuck Everlasting, I don’t really recall.
He had to keep drinking the water.
They had to keep returning to the fountain to renew another 50 years or 20 years or something.
Yeah, however long it is.
And what is it?
There was a quote, the dad of that family, the Tuck family said, living forever is not
a way to live.
You just are.
Let me look it up because it’s really good quote.
Okay.
It’s a central point of whether that’s worth it or not, that the downside is heavier than
the upside.
He says, you can’t have a living without dying.
So you can’t call it living.
What we got, we just are, we just be like rocks beside the road.
You can’t have a living without dying.
That makes me consider the idea of expecting immortality after death.
Does that cheapen life?
Does it cheapen immortality also?
And I have to go back to Michael Schur’s The Good Place.
Philosophically, he treated that idea of immortality, of heaven specifically in immortality.
Maybe that’s eternal life part of immortality.
But with that identifying that you get bored, you just become a rock, you become nothing.
Everything falls apart without that receding horizon, without some progress to look for,
something to overcome.
What are we without?
And that’s what Tuck kind of said is life is not, what was this quote again?
It’s like you’re a rock.
You can’t call it living.
You can’t call it living without a death.
You can’t have living without dying.
So they were just being, they were just there.
Yeah.
So you’re like the rocks, you’re like the tables and consciousness.
You supposedly have consciousness, but if you’re not going to die, what value is the
consciousness?
Yeah.
So immortality seems fun as a target, a goal, but Michael Schur pointed out, Tuck Everlasting
pointed it out, it’s not.
That’s not what we’re after.
We’re not after immortality.
So those two, at least those two stories, storylines specifically identified, immortality
is not what you should be shooting for.
There’s something else.
I think a lot of people who lose their faith in religion experience a freedom from, well,
yeah, it’s a freedom, but they experience a shift of valuing life.
They’re no longer going to, they no longer believe that there is life after death.
There’s an end and I have to make the most of what I’m doing now.
Because when the end happens, I’ve accomplished everything.
Yeah.
What legacy do I leave on earth because there’s not going to be anything after.
Because the immortality that you can have is the legacy you leave behind.
So that’s the thought that there is no immortality.
There is mortality.
We have this and our legacy is the only thing that we can leave.
Our legacy is our only benefit for this life because when we die, there’s nothing.
And that doesn’t seem to be a comforting thought for many people.
It’s not a comforting thought.
Well, some might say it made their life better because suddenly it meant more.
Suddenly it meant more.
Made their life better because they needed to create enough before they died.
Yeah, they needed to experience more.
They needed to do better.
It wasn’t just some religious figure telling them, be good person.
Now they’re like, this is the only life I got, I’m going to be a good person.
But even as LDS believers, you still have, this is your one mortal life.
You’re not going to be mortal again after this life unless you happen to be the son
of God and choose to come down and be killed for the sins, suffer for the sins of mankind.
Well that’s supposing that Jesus Christ was already through a probation before he came
down.
Well, isn’t that the idea though?
In LDS, as God is, man may become as man is, God once was.
That’s the way that Lorenzo Snow stated it.
Was that only Lorenzo Snow?
The scriptures, even the Bible says, doesn’t it say, ye are gods?
I’m not really sure.
That’s a different conversation.
Maybe it’s this conversation.
It’s not role to that.
Maybe it is, but there’s also a fringe religious concept of multiple probations that you have
the ability to go back through another mortality.
The fringe, not the mainstream.
Some of them.
A few of them.
Yeah, so maybe as many people as believe in polygamy believe in multiple probations.
Yeah, not necessarily the same people, right?
Right.
So they have scriptural references that can support it and however that goes.
I don’t necessarily, and like I said, we talked before, you’ve got to choose your belief.
Yeah.
Doesn’t really matter.
You’ve got to choose your belief.
And if you can believe in that, that’s just fine.
Okay, believe that.
Because in the end, it doesn’t really matter, would you say?
Okay.
I don’t know that in the end it doesn’t really matter, but it’s your direction through life.
So like immortality, if you decide immortality is worth living for, even though Tuck Everlasting
told you it’s not and The Good Place, Michael Schure’s explained it philosophically, it’s
not.
Immortality isn’t what you’re after.
You can still choose to live your life towards immortality.
Say that’s my goal.
That’s what I want.
So go ahead and freeze me.
Let’s get my brain, my head frozen so that when technology advances, you can bring it
back.
The question I’d have with that is when you do bring that back to life, does that same
spirit come back to it?
Where did the spirit go for the thousand years it took them to bring that cryogenic thing
back?
Okay.
What do you know about that?
What do I believe about that?
Yeah.
What do you believe about that?
Yeah, because know isn’t the right word.
The spirit’s immortal.
So I believe the spirit’s immortal.
So yeah, I believe.
I forgot who it was.
It was a baseball player.
Some baseball player has his head frozen as well.
Okay.
Mickey Mantle maybe.
Maybe it’s Mickey Mantle.
No, I don’t remember who it is.
Maybe I can find out who it is.
I’m going to find out soon.
Cryogenics baseball.
Cryogenics baseball.
Ted Williams.
Ted Williams.
Not a name that I would know, but I have heard about him before.
Yeah.
Ted Williams.
American traditional baseball player, manager.
So there’s a bishop, a theologian and a former bishop of a Christian church in England says
for the time between when you die and when you get a body to be immortal in, I suppose,
in that space.
There’s a time?
Yeah.
There’s a space between death and when God gives you a new body, I guess, a better body,
a healthy prime of your life body.
The scriptures say it’s your same body that’s going to step up from the graves to be reunited,
a reuniting of it.
So this guy, a new body, a new earth, but it’s the same earth that’s given its paradisiacal
glory.
In that space, the spirit will be with God.
He compared it to software and hardware.
The software will be with God’s hardware.
It will be in his hardware until God gives you your own hardware to be with.
Kind of like you take your spirit in that little chip that you implant into God’s brain
for a while and his body is wherever he is in that hardware.
And then after the resurrection, after the second coming, when there’s the morning of
the first resurrection and the resurrections occur.
Now, resurrections have already occurred.
When Christ was here on the earth and he was resurrected and he accomplished the atonement,
there were people that were raised at that time.
So there are immortals living, not necessarily on the earth, but there were people who were
raised from the dead at that time as well.
Yeah.
Was John the Baptist and the three Nephites ever resurrected or are they still continuing
on in their original bodies?
Yeah.
And that’s where I described that in 3rd Nephi.
I said, no, they had a change.
They were cleansed from mortality, but they didn’t receive the full transition to immortality
to live in his spiritual realms.
So cleansed from mortality, you still have to be on the earth, I suppose.
You still have to be in the physical realm.
Maybe there’s a rule that way.
So they’re here.
They’re not fully, I don’t know quite how it said it, but let’s just assume there’s
another change that’s going to happen when you have the ability to go through the veil,
go through to the spiritual realms with your physical body.
The change didn’t fully occur that they could leave this physical sphere, they have to stay on
the earth, but they’re cleansed from mortality.
So when you receive the resurrection, you will be able to take your body somewhere else.
Yeah.
Then, you know, we’ve talked about being able, because of all the space in between ourselves,
your spirit as an immortal spirit can easily walk through material.
Your body as an immortal body.
Your body as a resurrected body.
Yeah.
So there’s maybe that’s part of scientific or magic that, you know, an immortal has that
kind of magic, he can walk through solid objects.
You could put a thousand people in a Volkswagen because they can sit right on, right inside
of each other instead of just 22 inside of a Volkswagen.
And then they can separate from the other ones just as easy.
It’s like that movie that Pixar did, Disney Pixar, maybe Elemental, I believe.
I believe that is called.
So there’s a, it’s a story about fire and all of the little fire people and water and
all of the water people and wind and all of the wind people and the water people can all
come together and be one body of water, but they’re still a bunch of separate people in
that body of water.
And then they can just pop out and they take their whole self.
They don’t leave any of their self behind in their, in their mom’s body, you know, like
or their, you know, their family that all was there.
Yeah.
So yeah, that was a tangent.
Okay.
So, and that’s characteristic of immortality is that you can sit right inside of someone
else and be completely separate from them.
Yeah.
You can sit inside your table or, you know, and maybe you can turn something on so you
could actually sit on a chair because if, if you were, if you weren’t able to do anything
like that, then you wouldn’t have any, maybe you wouldn’t need to relax.
As mortals, we need to relax.
I had a thought that I was looking for in the scripture, but I can’t find it there.
I can find it in my notes and it probably came from two or three different references.
That’s why I can’t find the reference directly, but in my notes, we know that sin, and this
is all religious speaking because I’m taking it from scriptures.
Sin came from Adam.
So Adam’s brought sin and death into the world.
So just the way I’ve written it, Adam’s sin brought all death.
So that’s what brought death into the world.
So perhaps he was immortal before that, pre-mortal, pre-mortal before that.
Adam fell and his fall created death.
Christ’s righteousness through grace leads to eternal life.
So you have a dichotomy there.
You have death and life.
So you’ve got death and then you’ve got life that Christ solved.
So death and life may be opposite.
Death to life.
And then you’ve got immortality and eternal life.
And you talked about it somewhere in the scriptures.
It relates both of those together.
The immortality and eternal life.
So I said life is therefore death must be defined.
So life equals eternal life.
Death equals immortality.
It’s an eternal death.
It’s an everlasting death.
Immortality is an everlasting death.
Kind of Tuck described it that way.
Said life is not life without death.
Yes.
So without life or without death, you’re really in death.
You’re living in death as immortal.
So immortality is a way to continue in death.
You’re not mortal anymore.
So you are dead, mortally.
Mortally, physically you’re dead.
And so that was, you know, they do those dichotomies,
those correlations, they say one thing and then another.
So the thing was death to life, the comparison.
And it was immortality to eternal life.
It was the comparison, scripturally.
So I said life as we live now,
eternal life is gonna be as we live then.
Death as we have it as a consequence now,
death is a continual consequence in immortality.
So perhaps, perhaps when we die, we’re all immortal.
And that’s what the other scriptures say.
I mean, the Book of Mormon states that in other places,
all things are immortal.
Right, I think that correlates that what that rings true
with generally all Christian beliefs,
all Christian sects believe that no matter what,
after death, immortality is the state of being.
Whether you’re in hell, you’re either immortal in hell
or immortal in heaven.
In the LDS Church, they’d call that outer darkness
and the three degrees of glory, right, the three kingdoms.
And then there’s three degrees of glory
in the highest kingdom, right?
So that’s the primary statement.
Okay, perhaps.
I think so, okay, so.
Right, the primary statement, that’s it.
Yes, so you’re immortal, you’re an immortal being in hell
and in the what, spirit prison is just what happens
before you’re judged, before the resurrection,
you’re, what do they call that, spirit prison or?
Right, so you’re an immortal being there.
As Christ said today, thou shall be with me in paradise.
So.
Yeah, and you’re an immortal being in the lowest kingdom,
which is the celestial kingdom,
and in the terrestrial kingdom, the middle kingdom.
But in, only in the celestial kingdom,
can you be an eternal being, which.
That’s your thought.
Eternal, no, that’s, I think that’s doctrine, actually.
It’s not just my thought.
Well, yeah, but that’s what.
Yeah.
Okay.
But that’s what I’m thinking about.
So you know that, you know that for sure.
I know that it is.
I’d be careful.
No, what do you mean?
If I were you.
Do you disagree?
I would love to hear that.
Do you know anything for sure?
I spent two years, two hours, not two years,
I spent two hours investigating this,
and I know that the general authorities of the church
believe that you’re not an eternal being
unless you’re in the celestial kingdom,
which you can’t get there unless you have
your temple work done, and you can’t go to the temple
unless you’re a full tithe payer,
and so that’s why people say you can’t be an eternal being
unless you’re paying tithing to the church,
because paying tithing to anywhere else doesn’t count.
It has to be to the church.
Do you know what kind of logic you’re using?
No.
I don’t know what to call it, but do you realize?
You’re scaling back from what potentially is doctrine.
So let’s say it’s just potential doctrine.
I’m oversimplifying it. Potentially is true.
Is what you’re saying?
You’re, it’s a fallacy.
You’re operating in a fallacy,
and I don’t know what to call it, I don’t know what it is.
Okay, tell me.
But saying that here’s the intent,
so you’re looking at the intent,
this is a thing that potentially is true,
and so let’s assume it’s true,
and we’ll talk about this when we talk about truth.
We need to have this discussion.
If we assume it’s true,
then you break it down by pulling back from it
and saying here’s all the ways that it can’t be true,
because clearly we shouldn’t be paying tithing
to a corporation, so now that’s why that truth can’t exist.
Let’s not pay tithing to a corporation, let’s pay it to God.
That’s what it said in the scriptures.
Didn’t say pay it to the corporation.
So you are oversimplifying what I was saying,
but my point wasn’t about the tithing.
My point was about the eternal life in celestial.
Right, right, and so let’s talk about the eternal life
just real quick.
DNC 128, Doctrine and Covenants is a book of scripture
in the Church of Jesus Christ status.
So with that, all creation, and this is my summary of it,
it’s not what it actually says in the verses.
All creation will shout for joy to God
as God proclaims all the gifts of glory,
as he crowns people with this glory
of immortality and eternal life.
The gifts of glory, salvation, honor, immortality,
eternal life, kingdoms, principalities, and powers.
So those are the things that God is gonna gift people.
They’re all gifts.
It’s glory, salvation, honor, immortality, eternal life,
kingdoms, principalities, powers.
All those things are in God’s kingdom apparently
that you’re gonna have the opportunity to get.
All will apparently know and understand the process.
So everything, the desks, the papers, the trees,
the grass, the poop in the yard, the dog,
everything’s gonna understand it.
All the cells, all the amoebas and mitochondria,
everything else is gonna understand it.
And it’s a natural state.
The other thing you’re pointing to is,
is you’re not gonna go where you’re not comfortable.
That’s what you got from other,
it’s not that you have to go to the temple
or that you have to do this to get to the celestial kingdom.
If the celestial kingdom is your goal,
you’re gonna do the things that get you to your goal.
If it’s not your goal to, you can use any analogy,
you’re not gonna practice this certain skill
if your goal is not to hold that skill.
Why would you practice that skill?
That’s dumb, I’m not gonna do that.
You’re going where you’re willing.
So the natural state, immortality and incorruption
are natural process, natural orders is how I put this.
This is from Alma 41 and four and 12.
But just my summary, they’re natural orders.
They are permanent states based on natural desires
to happiness or to misery
based on the desire of the person.
Righteousness or evil, the importance is,
the end point is still incorruptible.
So you’re incorruptible in that evil,
you still cannot, whatever you choose, whatever your desire.
So this says you’re gonna be resurrected
to a state of happiness or state of misery,
whatever you decide or evil,
it didn’t use misery, it used evil.
So and I further described that if your goal
is to do evil continually,
you’ll do evil continually, immortally,
that’s the realm that you’ll be in.
You’re most comfortable in that status,
calling people idiots, you’ll be able to do that in death,
in immortality.
So immortality just takes you out of the corruption
of this earth, corruption of mortality,
you’re cleansed from mortality.
So and that came through a number of different scriptures,
incorruptible, they talk about that,
you’re supposed to seek for these things.
Then here’s another one, you’re raised in immortality
unto eternal life or eternal damnation.
So then we can introduce the other word of eternal
and what that means.
So eternal life versus eternal damnation
and nothing in between, is this a actual dichotomy?
No, it can’t be.
Because we determined that there’s nothing
that’s truly only two choices, right?
Correct, and it still can’t be
because eternal life is degrees of glory
within the celestial kingdom,
even if you’re just talking about that kingdom.
There’s many mansions in my father’s house
are many mansions.
It’s not just one house, you’re gonna go
and join God in his house, that’s not it.
So you’re gonna join where you’re willing to work to gain
and work to gain, see that it’s still by grace,
it’s a gift.
There’s no one that’s gonna earn an eternal crown of glory
or eternal life, you don’t earn eternal life.
It’s a gift of God.
But you can’t have it unless certain conditions are met.
Unless you desire it.
Yet the condition is, do you believe,
the thing for immortality, Moses 1.39,
where it’s the pearl of great price in the scriptures.
My work and my glory is to bring to pass the immortality
and the eternal life of man.
The way I’ve always understood it,
and I haven’t changed my understanding yet on this.
This didn’t really, this study didn’t change
that understanding, but immortality was given
at the resurrection.
Immortality is the ability to live
or to be in death eternally.
To be in death, not eternally, but continuously.
Everlasting, everlasting death.
So you’re everlasting death with your body.
And I use that death word because of the dichotomy
that that’s one thing that came new
into my understanding right now.
It may be wrong.
We may change that at some point.
But immortality is just an everlasting death.
You’re never gonna be mortal again.
And that’s the way the scriptures put it.
Never going to be. Which these may be wrong.
A mortal being again, right?
Is that what you’re saying?
You’ll never be a mortal being again.
You’ll never have another probation.
So multiple probations cannot exist
based on my current study.
Okay.
Right, so the multiple probation idea is wrong.
Reincarnation is wrong.
That’s not gonna occur.
I want to talk about the word eternal.
And then I also wanna go back to the skills idea.
You’re not going to practice a skill
that you’re not interested in.
First eternal.
Eternal is forward, but it’s also backward, right?
It’s everything all the time.
Yesterday, today, and forever.
So when you become an eternal,
when you’re in eternal life or eternal death,
you suddenly are that for all time,
what was and what is to come.
Yeah?
Right, and that would make sense that the veil,
they talk about it as a veil of our understanding
of our pre-earth life and future existence
or anything else.
That’s why we live by faith is because this veil,
is it immortality?
Eternal life will open that veil
so that you see all of the past and all the future,
you’re present in all the past and all the future,
omnipresent.
Okay, so.
An eternal being has to be omnipresent.
Yeah, an eternal being.
But before you are an eternal being,
you are an immortal being and you’re not omnipresent.
Immortality, well, no, not necessarily.
Immortality takes you unto eternal life
or eternal damnation.
So what I wrote there, immortality is a door.
It’s the door that gets you there.
Okay.
It isn’t a destination.
It’s just a status.
But if you don’t reach the celestial kingdom,
if you’re not gifted eternal life in the celestial kingdom,
then you have eternal death everywhere else
that’s not that space.
Well, they use the word in the scripture,
they use the eternal life or eternal damnation.
Yeah, and the only place you can get eternal life is-
Damnation isn’t hell.
It’s just, you’re not progressing any further
than what you’re willing to study for or work for
or live in.
What does damnation mean?
That’s such a negative word,
but is it not actually always bad?
I don’t think it’s bad.
I think it’s your choice to be damned,
eternal life or eternal damnation.
Damnation-
Divine punishment and torment in an afterlife
for sins that were committed,
or in some cases, good actions not done on earth.
Okay, and where did that, whose reference is that?
That’s Wikipedia’s damnation article.
Is that just Wikipedia?
Okay, so damnation in general,
it’s seen as hell, purgatory hell, horrible stuff.
You don’t want it. Horrible stuff.
So that’s motivational.
It’s motivationally written.
There’s gotta be another softer definition of damnation.
Churchofjesuschrist.org.
How about we read about that one?
And what do they say?
The state of being stopped in one’s progress
and denied access to the presence of God and his glory.
Okay, denied access.
Presence of God or, yeah, eternal.
Yeah, this corroborates your,
what you just said about eternal life or eternal damnation.
It says all who do not obtain the fullness
of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited
in their progress and privileges,
and they will be damned to that extent.
So there’s degrees of damnation.
Right, just as there are degrees of glory,
and you’re still crowned with immortality.
The fact that Christ came
and the strictly religious concept of Jesus Christ
being the center of this whole universe and world
and reasoning is that he came and was resurrected
and broke the bands of death,
issuing immortality to everyone and everything,
every creature that kind of covered that.
Every item is resurrected now,
has the ability to be immortal.
That immortal is just the doorway,
and the doorway that gets you to eternal life
in whatever degree that eternal life,
and still the eternal damnation,
that’s just saying this is where the divisions
of those degrees are, the damnation.
So what I need is a T-shirt that says,
I’m okay, I don’t need a T-shirt.
I just need to write it down somewhere.
I’m okay with being damned.
I’m a damned individual because I am not willing to.
I go ahead, damn me.
To do what I need to do.
Yeah, I’m not willing to do what I need to do
to go to the celestial kingdom.
No.
Okay, say that the way, what you are willing to do.
I’m willing to do this and I’m comfortable
and happy in this heaven.
This is heaven to me, is what you’re really saying.
Yeah.
I don’t need to worry about white robes and crystal hair.
That’s not what I’m after.
I’m after coffee.
That’s what the celestial kingdom looks like.
I’m actually, this life on earth is heaven,
and so can I stay here forever?
Do I need to die?
Can I just stay here?
Except from revelations and everywhere else,
this earth is gonna become the sea of glass.
It is gonna be that celestialized, paradisiacal place.
Oh, and I’m not allowed to be here.
And that the only people that can dwell here
are those with eternal life to dwell here,
with the ability to be on this earth.
If you like the earth in its mortal state,
this state of existence, terrestrial or telestial.
Just imagine what it’s gonna be like
when it receives its paradisiacal glory.
Right, and it said, well, some of the things
that in eternal life talked about,
the earth is the Urim and Thummim,
that all knowledge will come through the rocks
and the planet.
The planet will be your AI.
It’s your intelligence.
The intelligence will be omniscient.
That’s what the omniscience is.
In an eternal life, you are omniscient,
you’re omnipresent.
From beginning to the end, you are,
know everything because you’re connected directly
to the Urim and Thummim, which knows everything.
Which knows everything.
It’s the huge AI model.
We’re trying to get to that.
Be cool if AI evolves.
If it evolves, it will evolve into a Urim and Thummim.
Yeah, what a fairy tale to believe in.
Can you imagine if we were having this conversation
around the flying spaghetti monster,
and I didn’t believe in it,
but you absolutely believed in it.
And there was a whole lore around the history of FSM
and where we’re gonna go when we die,
and all of this, can you just imagine two people
talking seriously about that?
Tolkien seriously wrote about it in Middle Earth.
I mean, that whole, it’s not a flying spaghetti monster.
There are orcs.
What are they that fly?
There’s things.
And elves and dragons.
There’s things everywhere.
And everything is important in that,
and it’s a mythology and it’s a religion,
and it’s very important to protect the ring
that you were given and get it to the final resting place.
Yeah, people don’t literally believe in that world though,
and they don’t literally believe that they will be able
to visit the elf kingdom someday.
Okay, is it possible?
You see people don’t literally.
Is it possible that someone does literally believe it?
I think-
I know that they’re-
Highly probable that people do literally believe it.
Okay, yeah, I mean, I know there is a religion
based around the story.
It would be difficult for me to imagine
someone believing that this was written.
And you brought up the spaghetti monster,
which is less people believe in that.
Less people believe in that.
But there’s still a lot of people that do.
But at least one maybe.
If one person believes in it,
and it would be easy to convince someone
if you started from birth to convince them
that this is true, you know,
it would be easy to raise someone
who believes in the flying spaghetti monster, I think.
So the celestial glory is where you get eternal life.
No, eternal life and celestial glory
are two different things, I think I found out.
I think eternal life is something
that you get in the celestial kingdom.
But celestial glory is where you get to actually live
in the top third of the celestial kingdom,
and you get to dwell with God and Jesus.
And that is the ultimate goal of people
who want that skill, that that’s what they want.
They’re going to work very hard to get that celestial glory
with dwelling with God and Jesus.
And when you think about it, that seems like
the ultimate goal that everyone should be reaching for.
It’d be silly to believe in a God
and not want to live with him.
Like it would be silly to believe
that there is an American dream
and not want to live in America.
Right.
Why would you want to go to Croatia
if you could live in America and the whole world
can understand that and see it
and then migrate to America, let’s do that.
So it’s kind of a goal of everybody
who would make it their goal to want to live in Syria.
I don’t know, maybe there is.
Yeah, well, and that’s if they have communities,
communities do trump a lot of things
where your values are.
But if you were a silo, if you were by yourself
and had no outside influences,
no communities around you telling you
that it’s funner over here.
If you know that there’s a God,
of course after death you want to live with him.
But your skill, your skill analogy,
if there’s skills out there
that you’re just not interested in learning,
then you’re not going to practice those skills.
But what about the veil?
And when you cross the veil,
when you go through the immortal door
and on the other side you have knowledge
and then you’re suddenly like,
oh shit, what did I do my whole life?
I screwed everything up.
I really do want to be in the celestial kingdom.
Then, I mean, of course you have that thousand years,
the millennium or whatever to correct your actions
and take the right course.
But that means that everything on the mortal realm
is worthless, pointless.
Okay, so, and that does open the discussion,
the millennium opens the discussion
of what happens when you die,
when you’re in the spirit world or spirit prison.
How much do you know?
Are you immortal?
You’re not necessarily an immortal at that point.
You’re not an immortal.
But I thought we had determined already that after death,
every being is going to be immortal.
That’s when immortality for your soul begins.
Immortal is-
When you die, your soul is immortal, regardless.
Okay, here’s another statement I want to make.
Here’s another statement I had.
Immortal is an ordinance ordained.
Okay, Acts 13.
Jews described as judge,
they were unworthy of eternal life as given by Christ.
Celestial kingdom, eternal life.
Though the Gentiles accepted the ordination to eternal life.
So perhaps the priesthood is the earthly equivalent
of eternal life and can be gifted in an ordinance.
Eternal life can be gifted in an ordinance
because he said the Jews were judged
that they were unworthy of eternal life as given by Christ.
But the Gentiles accepted into the ordination
to eternal life.
It used the word ordination.
So it’s a changing.
There’s a structure of it.
There’s something that happens to make a person immortal.
The three Nephites and John were given some change,
some blessing or whatever, a transformation
that caused half immortality,
but still living in the mortal realm,
not able to transfer or not yet desiring to transfer.
The nine other once said, we want to transfer quickly.
So they were given the ability to have immortality quickly.
But immortality, we don’t know when that occurs,
but it is still a gift.
It’s an ordination is the way I’m seeing it.
And it’s possible to receive that.
Let me just go this one step.
Here, it’s in 2 Peter.
Those who had been called and elected,
people will enter into the everlasting kingdom.
Peter was talking there and said that
he’d been elected to enter the everlasting kingdom.
So you can enter that kingdom on earth in mortality,
enter the everlasting kingdom.
Perhaps that’s that change that you’re taking away
from the corruption of the world,
cleansed from mortality without actually dying yet,
without getting into the eternal death, the immortal death.
So cleanse from mortality,
that’s gotta be the two definitions.
So cleanse from mortality is what John
and the three Nephites were.
The immortal death is not happened yet in their bodies,
but they’re still cleansed from the mortal corruption.
Okay, now take everything that you just said
in the last two minutes and make it short.
What did you just say?
There is time, there is time.
We don’t know the time or the place.
So immortality isn’t something, the fear,
I’m not gonna summarize what I just said.
It always rolls to something else.
I can’t summarize it.
You don’t have to be afraid.
The fear that, yeah, you don’t have to be afraid.
That’s what I’m saying.
Don’t be afraid of it.
It’s not that you’re stopped.
Damnation doesn’t mean you’re stopped
and stopped from getting somewhere.
Okay, but that’s not my concern.
My concern is if you’re going to have a thousand years
after death, the millennium or whatever,
before the resurrection of all beings.
Correct.
Then what are we doing on earth?
Okay, on earth, let me explain the difference
between those two in my understanding.
On earth, we live by faith.
We don’t know the millennium.
We don’t know when it starts.
We don’t know what it’s gonna be like.
We don’t know what economy is gonna operate.
We only know a few things about it.
Potentially, we know Christ will reign personally
on the earth, that all will understand
that he is the king on the earth.
There will be immortal and mortal beings living
at the same time in the same place.
So that’s all I know about it.
That’s what I understand and believe about the millennium.
But I have no idea.
I believe also that our economy will not break
and have to start a new one.
Our economy is gonna meld right into that economy
of the millennium.
You know that or you believe that?
I believe that.
I believe that.
I don’t believe that we’re gonna go all down
to sticks and stones, battling each other underground
and having to fight this war with sticks and stones.
And then Christ is gonna save us all.
The Battle of Armageddon isn’t gonna kill a third of us.
The economy is still gonna be flowing just fine.
There’ll still be a president of the United States
and of Russia and of China.
And Christ is going to come and say,
okay, you guys are now serving me.
And they’ll say, yes, we are.
Just like everyone else will say, yes, we are.
So that’s the way I think it’s gonna happen.
Not scriptural, I didn’t read that anywhere.
It’s possible to corroborate your beliefs
with scripture though.
Oh, I don’t know if it is, but it might be.
And I’m basing that on the fact that
it’s not going to be a shock.
When Christ comes down from the clouds,
however that’s gonna happen,
when the war is there and the mountains are split
and he comes out, it’s gonna be a natural thing.
We’re not gonna be afraid.
It’s not gonna be like drones flying over New Jersey.
It won’t even be as frightening as that.
It’ll be commonplace.
Everyone will say, of course, this is Jesus Christ.
And he’s the ruler of the world.
And now we have a king.
We’re in a kingdom again of the world.
And this is cool.
Everyone’s gonna say, this is cool.
Now let’s just go use my debit card
and buy McDonald’s today.
And we’ll still be doing that.
Okay, so that’s my thought.
The millennium is a thousand years.
We can’t even think a thousand years back.
I mean, the year 1000, but we’ve talked about this before.
Genghis Khan 1200, that’s only 800 years ago.
I mean, that’s not even a thousand years.
That’s 200 more years.
We haven’t been a country for 200 years.
We’ve barely been a country for 200 years.
So you got 200 more years before Genghis Khan.
I don’t even know who is the Nicene Creed.
I mean, they were barely trying to figure life out
in the middle of the dark ages of 1000, 980 or something.
The first Bible was written in 400 AD,
the oldest Bible that they started compiling records,
400 AD was 400, what?
600 years before that thousand years.
So it’s only been 1600 years, 2000 years since Christ.
I mean, you start to think about how long a thousand years is,
it’s a huge amount of time.
And you’re living in an environment
that you know there’s a King on the earth
and his name is Jesus Christ.
His name is the spaghetti monster
or whatever you wanna call it or it’s who is,
who’s the guy in middle earth?
Gandalf, Gandalf is ruling the earth.
Whoever it is, he’s there, everyone agrees,
everyone understands and everyone’s gonna be studying
for a thousand years.
We can study for 10 years and learn a heck of a lot of stuff
more than you could imagine in 10 years.
Go 100 X times that, that’s just,
there’s no way that we’re gonna be in a mode of learning
and progress in a thousand years
and not determine what we’re actually willing to do.
So we will decide our place and it will be perfect.
Even though someone may say, oh, you’re way down there.
I don’t even think in the eternal life
that someone will say,
I’m so sorry that you didn’t make it where I am.
That’s not a heavenly thought.
The heavenly thought is we’re both here on this side,
we’re both immortal.
You’re living in that house and I’m living in this house.
And they’re wonderful houses, aren’t they?
Yeah, and the person living with God won’t be like,
so I’m gonna go and visit God today.
Too bad you can’t come.
Right, you don’t have that animosity.
That’s part of the cleansing for mortality.
Mortal people battle, compare back and forth.
You’ve got more than me.
Why do you have more than me?
Because you wanted more?
Oh, I didn’t want that much.
Envy and jealousy.
Yeah.
All right.
So when we get to the millennium,
it’s completely different than now.
It’s…
Yeah.
I did determine through this that figuring out
how can, if an immortal is cleansed from corruption,
immortal people cannot be corrupted by Satan
or by envy or jealousy or lust or any of those things
that are our lot in everyday life right now.
So how can the story be that at the end of millennium,
Satan is loosed for a season?
We invite Satan back into the picture.
We invite temptation back into the world.
I determined from this study how that’s gonna happen
because mortals and immortals are living together.
It’s gonna be the mortals that start failing
and falling again and saying,
because they’re still in a corruptible state,
they’re gonna invite that corruption.
They’re gonna say, I can do this with my body.
Watch this.
They’ll start experimenting on things
and they’ll be the ones that invite lust back into the world
and invite jealousy and comparison back into the world.
An immortal being won’t be doing that.
So what are you saying that after the thousand years,
there will still be mortal people on the earth?
Correct.
In the thousand years, there’ll be…
But the earth will be the celestial kingdom.
Like how can you have mortal people living on the earth if…
The celestial kingdom happens after the millennium.
But I thought, oh wait, so did I say that wrong then?
Yeah.
After the millennium.
Yeah, after the millennium,
there’s gonna be mortal people on the earth?
No? No.
No, because that will be the judgment,
the final judgment at the end of times.
Apparently all the intelligences that were made spirits
will have processed through that millennial time
and will be complete, perfect.
I don’t know.
And there will be no…
There will be death and birth on the earth
in the millennium. In the millennium, right.
That’s my understanding.
And even up until the very last minute,
someone could be born and then the very next minute
after the millennium, then their spirit, eternal or immortal.
If that judgment will take a minute or 10,000 years,
we don’t know the span of time.
Anything beyond millennium is a thousand years.
And that’s probably rough as well.
It might be 1500 years and still be called a millennium.
All this stuff is unknowable.
Unknowable until we pass through the veil
and then we’ll know, right?
Well, and the only thing that we have now
is scriptures supposedly that came through prophets
that God spoke to man and said, here, write this.
And then we have a scripture that potentially is not correct
that’s been corrupted because it’s in the mortal state.
We have a corrupt scripture
that may not be saying things right.
You know, how I got immortality is an ordination.
Maybe it’s not an ordination.
Someone put it in there to say, yeah,
that’s just this simple thing
where it’s maybe something more complex.
So we don’t really know.
We’re completely under faith,
under a belief system right now.
You have to identify what you believe and move towards it.
Yeah, you’re back to, you have to choose your beliefs.
Right.
Yeah.
And you hear something.
And if it rings true.
And you will know after you die,
you will have knowledge.
When you pass through the veil,
you will have knowledge of whether
what you believed on earth was correct or not.
I’m not sure because they talk about,
there is teaching in the spirit prison and spirit paradise.
You’re still learning.
Your spirits are still learning,
gathering intelligence, gathering data, knowledge.
It’s not until the celestial kingdom after the millennium,
after whatever timeframe the judgment is
that the Urim and Thummim idea comes to play.
That then, and that’s where-
Yeah, the perfect knowledge of things.
Even in the Bible says, ye are gods.
That’s way down the line at the end that you may-
Yeah, and you said celestial kingdom.
Are you saying that in the telestial kingdom
and in the terrestrial kingdom and in-
Outer darkness.
Outer darkness, you will not have
a perfect knowledge of everything?
Like you might not because the celestial kingdom
is the place that you can.
Eternal life, there might be a delineation
in eternal damnation.
There may be a degree, say 32%,
anything below 32% has no omniscience.
You’re just living.
And I don’t know, it’s possible.
Maybe those who are in eternal damnation
are still, because they’re in eternal life,
but it’s a damnation life.
It’s still an eternal life.
Still a crown of glory.
I don’t know, if I were a god,
I wouldn’t make it so drastic.
Yeah, you wouldn’t.
What I create, I don’t want to create something
that’s gonna fail and that I have to just,
I don’t know, if I loved it, why would you,
if you love something, why do you want it to just
break apart and you crush it to smithereens?
You can’t crush it to smithereens because
atoms still exist, molecules still exist,
everything’s still there.
So nothing dissipates, nothing disappears.
And that’s the quandary.
We don’t know.
Yeah, yes.
So after all of this, I-
You still don’t know anything.
I still don’t know anything and I am inclined
to still not believe in supernatural ideas.
It is hard to believe that there is a thousand years
plus however long the transition between millennium
and eternal life is.
If it’s tens of thousands of years,
that’s more than you can think of, right?
That’s what you said was you can’t even think
of what life was a thousand years ago.
Yeah.
It’s hard to imagine a whole thousand years
and even if years are actually 365 days,
like what if a year is a minute in God’s language
or whatever?
Like, and if you’re an eternal being,
do beings become eternal before the end of the millennium?
If they have their, what, second anointing or something?
Yeah, the calling election.
The extra special stuff that they don’t have to-
You kind of said that, that he was offered
everlasting life, being immortal.
Yeah.
So yeah, maybe you do enter that status.
You can enter that status.
And so once you’re an eternal being,
then of course time doesn’t matter
because you are eternal now and forever in the past
and forever in the future.
There’s no end and no beginning.
It’s eternal, that’s what we think eternal means.
That we don’t know, but eternity suggests
no start and no end, but-
Eternal, the word did say if it’s God’s,
it belongs to God.
It is in God’s realm.
Anything God does is eternal.
So, and that’s just another big way to say,
I think that’s why the scripture said it that way
is just, it’s unknowable, not able to communicate.
Can you imagine anything better than what you believe?
The ability to eat whatever you wanna eat.
I can imagine that.
Oh yeah, that’s included.
That’s included in your belief though, actually.
You can eat whatever you want as an eternal being.
What else?
Anything better.
Yeah, that’s what you’re saying.
So once you get to eternal life,
the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom
and you’re there in your mansion,
is there anything better that you can get to?
Anything better that you can imagine.
Can you imagine anything that you would want to believe
differently than what you believe now
about after death times in eternity?
Okay, so you bring it back to the present.
In my current life, in this mortality with who I am,
could I imagine, could I create a plan of happiness
more than what I currently believe?
A plan of happiness that would generate more happiness
and joy and all the good stuff than I currently believe.
And what would that be?
That’s kind of the question is what would that be?
I think agnosticism is the best way to live.
It is a good way to live, I agree.
I have no idea what would be better.
You want those things you don’t have.
So what I’m thinking is that you want the things
that you don’t have.
What don’t you have here in this life that you’d want?
Eternal life, but without the universal rule,
the laws that God has to follow, how about that?
How about we don’t need to come to earth to get a body
to be able to go to the celestial kingdom?
How about everybody, regardless of their actions on earth,
get to dwell with God, no matter what?
No matter what, because after the millennium,
all hearts will be changed anyway.
The murderers aren’t gonna have murderous intentions
anymore, the rapists are not going to have any desire
to rape anyone.
You solve all of that in a thousand years.
You can solve much of that in a year or two or five.
How about everybody gets to live with God just as a gift.
God says, you know what, everyone, you can do it.
That’s fine.
And we don’t even have to go through the millennium.
Well, I’ll just snap my fingers and everyone will be,
have a perfect knowledge of everything.
All hearts will change.
All hearts will be perfect.
They won’t change because there’s nothing to change from.
We’re gonna make you a being, a heart.
You’re gonna be perfect.
We’re gonna have perfect beings living in these mansions
that I’m making, that I’ve prepared.
With just enough diversity to make it interesting,
but not enough to make anybody be evil.
Diversity.
Yeah.
Enough diversity to make it interesting.
What causes interest?
What makes it interesting?
When everyone is thinking the same way that you do.
Except they like yellow instead of blue.
When everyone likes, yeah.
Yeah, when everyone likes yellow
and nobody likes blue or purple,
and then you just, everyone’s houses are yellow
and everyone’s clothes are yellow,
that would be not interesting.
Correct.
So everyone’s gonna have different preferences
of what they like and what they like to taste
and what they like to smell.
All of the senses of our bodies,
everyone’s gonna have a different,
and everyone will have a body too.
That will be, everyone can experience pleasure,
physical pleasure in this better heaven
that I’m creating right now.
So physical pleasure, different preferences
based on your physical senses,
but then also your mind and your spirit will be pure
and you’ll have no ill intentions.
You’ll know everything.
And you will get to live with everyone that you love,
and you love everyone.
And so you get to live with everyone
and you get to see them whenever you want,
and you get to have conversations or you get to be alone.
Yeah.
I think that’s a better idea.
I should start a religion.
Yes.
I wonder how many people I can convert.
What would cause you not to start a religion?
I could be a really rich person.
What did you just say?
What would cause you not to start a religion?
And what purpose would you start a religion for that?
The reason I wouldn’t restart it
is because it sounds like a lot of work.
I think maybe I’ll write it down
and then I’ll just let it happen.
If it happens, then that’d be great, but-
You didn’t describe-
I’ve already written it down by speaking it.
You didn’t describe one thing there
that I don’t already believe.
That’s not already in the plan of happiness.
Okay, what?
Not one thing.
I mean, bodies that you have and feel and grow
and independence.
Well, yeah, that’s all,
except for the part where everybody gets it.
Except for the part where nobody goes to outer darkness.
Nobody lives in the Telestial Kingdom because everybody-
Except the way that I just described it,
nobody lives in outer darkness.
They live in heaven.
So why would there be an outer darkness?
Is a delineation.
And maybe that’s part of,
we know the scriptures are not necessarily all true.
There are factions in religion that say,
these are the infallible words of God.
And every word here is important
and you’ve got to believe everything and it’s all literal.
Outer darkness, religions and Satan or what?
Incorruption.
Corruption may want to motivate you,
coerce you to motivate.
Oh, there’s another word.
Without compulsory means.
So in the Doctrine and Covenants, it says,
the dominion will be an everlasting dominion
and without compulsory means,
it shall flow unto you forever and ever.
Your dominion is where you live.
It’s who you are, what you do.
That’s not just the people in the Celestial Kingdom,
that’s people in outer darkness,
people in the lower degrees,
the lower damnation, eternal life
is still dominion flowing into you without compulsory means.
There are no laws, there are no limits.
You can do whatever you want.
No limits, you’re not limited by anything.
You’re limited, if you’re limited,
it’s because you don’t want to have curly hair.
You want straight hair.
Okay, straight hair.
I love yellow, I don’t love blue.
I’m gonna live in a yellow house.
Right, your limits are your own preferences,
but what if you want to live with God,
but you don’t want to do the work for a celestial kingdom?
Well, it depends on what that work is.
Because simply, okay, grace.
But in my heaven, you get to anyway.
Let’s, that brings up the question of grace.
What work is required?
Believe, if you believe in God and want to live with God,
you’ll live with God, automatic.
That’s the grace, that’s grace, that’s mercy.
Complete mercy, if you believe.
If you don’t believe, you won’t.
If you believe in the spaghetti monster,
you’ll be living with the spaghetti monster, not God.
I feel like there’s more that in your particular religion,
In my belief?
I feel like there’s more that you have to do.
It’s not just, not necessarily your belief,
but the religion that you have tied yourself to.
Correct.
Because I know that you have beliefs
that are different contrary to what other LDS members believe
and so you can’t say that, you know.
No, you believe, you believe I have different contrary.
You have to be baptized and receive the gift
of the Holy Ghost to enter the path
that leads to eternal life.
So you can’t enter the path that leads to eternal life
without baptism.
Right, there are ordinances.
So what if I don’t want to be baptized?
What if you don’t want to be baptized?
Right, what if in my heaven, there’s no baptism,
there’s no ordinances, there’s no steps to take.
Just by virtue of being, you get eternal life.
Okay, I think that hearkens back to,
I mean, the thing you said with everyone’s in yellow houses
or whatever, whatever heaven’s like,
heaven’s gotta be differentiated.
It’s gotta be based on your desires.
Heaven’s not gonna be the same for everybody.
The sea of glass, a sea of glass,
and living on a sea of glass
and earth that’s a paradisiacal glory
and is a Urim and Thome and it can know everything.
You can also have anything you want.
You’re gonna have a different house you’re living in,
a different mansion than someone else, perhaps.
Don’t know what our living arrangements are gonna be.
Maybe we’ll all live in little tubes on the sides of trees.
I don’t know.
It’ll be cool.
That’s something.
Well, now that’s where I wanna live, actually.
Yeah, tube on the side of a tree.
A little tube on the side of a tree.
So in the good place, they had the yogurt factories.
You went, I mean, the one heaven that they were in
is just a yogurt shops everywhere.
And he says, why do you all love yogurt?
I mean, we put this here because it was, nobody likes yogurt.
And now the fountains are yogurt, everything’s yogurt.
He says, that was a trick.
It was to tell you this is the bad place.
Not the good place.
The bad place will try to make everything all uniform.
That’s, again, Michael Schur’s philosophical description
of it and talking the way you’re talking there.
Is there something better?
The only thing they come up with better
is you have a challenge.
You have something unknown to search for, to reach for.
The faith, I think, has to still be part
of perfect knowledge.
I don’t know how that’s gonna work.
If you have omniscience, what do you have faith in?
And maybe God, in his stance, looking down at us,
he’s got faith that we can figure this out.
He’s watching someone else play the game now
if he’s already played the game and he’s got
omniscience and eternal life and omnipresence.
And all of that’s there in that realm
as far as our mortal world can see.
And he’s created this mortal world for us to live on,
where on these may dwell.
And how Satan said that I’m only doing the things
that have been done in other worlds.
So it’s happened again and again.
It’s a game we’re playing.
We’re in this mortal realm.
We’re moving to some celestial glory that we don’t know yet.
And what we could think is our highest aspiration now
will probably mean nothing there.
The aspirations will be different in an eternal world.
What do you aspire to?
We’re all related to this mortal earth here.
Right, it’s beyond our mortal comprehension.
Right.
What could be. And your joys,
like I said too, I was trying to think about that.
There are only the things that you’re missing now.
I mean, I’m missing the ability to fly still.
I’d love to fly.
Just stand up.
I mean, pull off of my chair and float around the room.
I wanna float around the room.
Right.
Be weightless on this earth.
And that’s gonna happen.
You can get that.
When you get that, then what’s the next thing?
What could you do?
Right.
Okay.
This is enough for now.
It’s not too deep.
It’s deep enough.
We’ve gone deep enough.
It’s deep enough where we’re at.
We’ve gone enough.
And it’s been fun.
It has been fun.
This is one of my favorite things to talk about
is trying to figure out what you believe.
Absolutely seeing that you are choosing your beliefs.
You’re not being fed these things
except through what you’re reading.
And you choose what you read.
I don’t think that you believe anything.
I don’t think that you believe anything that’s wrong for you.
You haven’t seen something, read something,
and decided I’m not gonna believe that.
Like you said before, you said in an earlier conversation,
you’re really good at twisting things.
Right.
I can twist it to fit.
I can make anything twist to fit.
Just like what you said, your dream of life,
I see every bit of it.
I twisted all of that right into my heaven.
You’ve twisted it all, right.
It’s already there.
And I can say where it fits and how it works.
Yeah, even though I can see a clear difference
between your heaven and my heaven,
you’re seeing the same.
I think you’re falling into that compulsory means idea
that you’re gonna be compelled to do something.
I believe that when you get to the end,
you’re not gonna be compelled to do a thing.
That’s what a thousand years is for.
All the compelling is your own doing.
You are gods.
We won’t be judged and placed somewhere
that we don’t wanna be.
That we don’t wanna be.
Is that what you’re saying?
Yeah.
Okay.
You’re willing to be where you’re at.
That’s gonna be perfect.
And perhaps no one will be in the lower degrees
of the celestial kingdom.
Everyone, all, quadrillion billion will be
in the upper degree of the celestial kingdom
in their own mansions on the sea of glass,
knowing and learning everything forever.
So we still have to talk about truth
and what it is and if you can break it.
So the one, if conversation three or four weeks ago
that we’re almost ready to publish,
we said, that’s what we’ll talk about.
So we do need to put that in the works
because I think that’s important.
That’s in relation to all this.
We’ve talked about it a lot today.
If there is a truth,
how do you know if something’s not true?
Because you said at that point,
I don’t believe in anything that’s not true.
Or how can you even know?
I don’t want to believe in anything that’s not true.
How can you even know that it’s not true?
And how can you make it not true?
So that’s,
Right.
I think that’s an important delineation
needs to be brought up.
And I don’t know when we’ll do that.
That will come up.
What are we talking about next week anyway, by the way?
It looks like we wanna talk about victimization.
You didn’t put it on yet.
Yeah, okay.
I didn’t put it on the calendar,
but I mean, while I have it in the list though.
So think about it for a week.
Victimization, victims, victimizing, being a victim,
seeing victims, whatever, victimization.
All right.
Yeah, and you’re leading that.
So you get to decide how that goes.
I’ll figure out what direction to go.
All right, we’ll talk to you in a week.
Have a good day.
Okay.
Bye.
Bye.
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