In which we examine the cognitive and social dynamics of “us vs. them,” exploring how groups form, justify their beliefs, and respond to disagreement.
Recorded February 5, 2026.
Note: we had recording issues, both with the primary and the backup device, so the audio may seem to end too early in the conversation. If we can recover the recording, we’ll post the rest of this conversation as part 2.
Please continue the conversation with us!
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@doyouhaveaminutepodcast/videos
Email: doyouhaveaminuteconversations@gmail.com
Voicemail: (720)-853-4735
Show notes and links:
Transcript:
Jump to end
00:00:05.070 –> 00:00:07.269
So we’re going to try another conversation here
00:00:07.269 –> 00:00:12.230
on something that is difficult, I think. Yes,
00:00:12.230 –> 00:00:15.150
because we had talked about this for a little
00:00:15.150 –> 00:00:19.329
bit before, and I was giving you some absolute
00:00:19.329 –> 00:00:24.510
no, that’s wrong, and that was hard. Right. It’s
00:00:24.510 –> 00:00:26.190
hard to hear. It’s hard for someone to tell you
00:00:26.190 –> 00:00:35.719
that you’re wrong. Yeah. And maybe you can convince
00:00:35.719 –> 00:00:40.119
me that I am wrong. Well, and that’s the whole
00:00:40.119 –> 00:00:43.179
point is why does that even exist? So what that
00:00:43.179 –> 00:00:46.520
is, is you identified it before. So the topic
00:00:46.520 –> 00:00:51.359
is us versus them. Yeah. So, and that’s kind
00:00:51.359 –> 00:00:53.219
of, we talked a little bit about that’s a sophist
00:00:53.219 –> 00:00:57.380
idea that I know that us is right. I’m right.
00:00:57.579 –> 00:01:03.520
You’re wrong. Clearly. So. That identifies the
00:01:03.520 –> 00:01:09.099
us -them problem. Well, that’s, I’m right and
00:01:09.099 –> 00:01:12.980
you’re wrong. That’s a me and you thing, which
00:01:12.980 –> 00:01:16.819
is a different problem, I think. Is it different?
00:01:16.900 –> 00:01:25.920
Yeah, because us versus them is very broad. It’s,
00:01:25.920 –> 00:01:33.209
you know, ideologically. You can have a you group,
00:01:33.370 –> 00:01:35.769
like the group that you believe that you are
00:01:35.769 –> 00:01:40.349
completely 100 % aligned with, and the others
00:01:40.349 –> 00:01:42.989
that are not aligned with you, and that’s them.
00:01:43.530 –> 00:01:49.790
You know? I mean, me and you. And are them wrong,
00:01:49.989 –> 00:01:56.010
then? If you and your people are right, if us
00:01:56.010 –> 00:02:01.209
is right, then… then it leads one to believe
00:02:01.209 –> 00:02:06.650
that them are wrong. Okay. If there’s a right,
00:02:06.709 –> 00:02:10.669
there’s a wrong. And how is that different than
00:02:10.669 –> 00:02:13.650
if I’m right and you’re wrong? Well, because
00:02:13.650 –> 00:02:17.789
we’re individuals. We can separate ourselves
00:02:17.789 –> 00:02:21.349
from a group. If you say I’m right and you’re
00:02:21.349 –> 00:02:29.110
wrong, however… We, we are right and y ‘all
00:02:29.110 –> 00:02:32.009
are wrong are different. That’s different. It’s
00:02:32.009 –> 00:02:36.889
a, instead of targeting one individual with their
00:02:36.889 –> 00:02:40.650
wrongness, it’s lumping a whole group of people
00:02:40.650 –> 00:02:43.370
into it. All of them are wrong. They’re all,
00:02:43.449 –> 00:02:47.129
they’ve all got the wrong ideas. Okay. You know,
00:02:47.150 –> 00:02:52.169
I don’t know. So what’s the valid end to that
00:02:52.169 –> 00:02:57.990
for all of them? Unfortunately, the valid end
00:02:57.990 –> 00:03:01.969
is the Holocaust. The Holocaust. Can we give
00:03:01.969 –> 00:03:08.909
some context to what we’re talking about? Sure.
00:03:09.849 –> 00:03:13.330
Because, I mean, you don’t just jump to the Holocaust.
00:03:14.509 –> 00:03:19.169
But that’s a them. That is a valid them. What’s
00:03:19.169 –> 00:03:21.629
other them? So you’re going to try to point out
00:03:21.629 –> 00:03:24.270
what the other thems are in our current day.
00:03:24.680 –> 00:03:27.620
Yeah. So who are some of the us’s and them’s
00:03:27.620 –> 00:03:30.639
we deal with? A year and a half ago, it was Republicans
00:03:30.639 –> 00:03:41.139
and Democrats or the left and the right. Progressives
00:03:41.139 –> 00:03:46.219
and conservatives. Yeah. Socialism, socialists.
00:03:46.680 –> 00:03:50.710
Capitalists. And capitalists. Yeah. So there
00:03:50.710 –> 00:03:53.310
was an election. And at the election, there was
00:03:53.310 –> 00:03:55.870
polarized. There was a polarized side, one side
00:03:55.870 –> 00:03:57.669
and the other. Very, very polarized. And one
00:03:57.669 –> 00:03:59.990
side was right. The other side was wrong, no
00:03:59.990 –> 00:04:04.009
matter what side you sat on. Yeah. So that’s
00:04:04.009 –> 00:04:08.830
the polarization. Yeah. So that’s today. It’s
00:04:08.830 –> 00:04:18.149
immigration and deportation. And whether you
00:04:18.149 –> 00:04:25.509
are pro. deporting people out of this country
00:04:25.509 –> 00:04:32.310
if they’re here illegally or anti -deporting
00:04:32.310 –> 00:04:35.389
people here out of this country if they’re here
00:04:35.389 –> 00:04:40.050
illegally. I don’t even… And that’s the name
00:04:40.050 –> 00:04:43.470
of the protest that’s there. I don’t think they
00:04:43.470 –> 00:04:46.889
really care. What do you mean? They don’t know.
00:04:47.470 –> 00:04:50.110
They don’t know anyone. Those who are against
00:04:50.110 –> 00:04:55.230
the deportation. Against the deportation. Yeah.
00:04:56.589 –> 00:04:58.509
They’re not necessarily against deportation.
00:04:58.610 –> 00:05:00.689
They don’t know anyone that’s being deported.
00:05:00.750 –> 00:05:02.790
It’s not their family. They don’t have any connection
00:05:02.790 –> 00:05:05.149
to them. They’re just saying, these are the people
00:05:05.149 –> 00:05:09.610
we want to protect. They’re against. They’re
00:05:09.610 –> 00:05:11.689
more against the administration than they are
00:05:11.689 –> 00:05:17.399
for people staying in the country. Yeah. Did
00:05:17.399 –> 00:05:21.680
you hear the word that you said a bunch of times
00:05:21.680 –> 00:05:25.939
in that whole sentence? Okay. What was it? They.
00:05:25.980 –> 00:05:29.540
I didn’t hear it. They, there. Them. You were
00:05:29.540 –> 00:05:31.540
classifying all of the people. Because I’m not
00:05:31.540 –> 00:05:34.300
part of that group. Right. All of them together.
00:05:34.500 –> 00:05:38.660
Excellent. See? And that’s the whole thing. It’s
00:05:38.660 –> 00:05:43.149
a them. Because us, we don’t. We don’t mind if
00:05:43.149 –> 00:05:44.930
people are deported. Right. And we don’t mind
00:05:44.930 –> 00:05:46.189
if the administration does what the administration
00:05:46.189 –> 00:05:49.850
does. But if you are a them and you care what
00:05:49.850 –> 00:05:51.470
the administration does and you don’t want a
00:05:51.470 –> 00:05:55.129
king, because no King’s Day has passed and no
00:05:55.129 –> 00:05:57.129
one’s talked about kings anymore, but they’re
00:05:57.129 –> 00:06:00.029
talking about deportation in the same line. It
00:06:00.029 –> 00:06:04.050
didn’t matter if it was no king or illegal immigrants.
00:06:04.569 –> 00:06:12.470
Right. So. They’re still them. And I’m still
00:06:12.470 –> 00:06:22.430
us. Yeah. You’re quite sure that anyone, any
00:06:22.430 –> 00:06:28.730
individual at a protest is protesting the idea
00:06:28.730 –> 00:06:33.769
of deportation and not protecting their neighbors.
00:06:39.250 –> 00:06:43.009
I’m… I’m more certain of the fact, okay, and
00:06:43.009 –> 00:06:46.310
us and them, my clear understanding of them is
00:06:46.310 –> 00:06:50.850
there’s, it’s an S word. They’re not very smart.
00:06:52.769 –> 00:06:56.889
They’re following an order that they don’t even
00:06:56.889 –> 00:07:01.449
know why. So they’re operating stupidly. I see.
00:07:02.709 –> 00:07:05.730
Yeah. And what leads you to that conclusion?
00:07:09.230 –> 00:07:12.769
What do you do to that conclusion? It clearly
00:07:12.769 –> 00:07:17.529
is, it’s clearly an opinion. So it’s a statement.
00:07:19.209 –> 00:07:22.410
Did you come up with that yourself? Was it given
00:07:22.410 –> 00:07:26.769
to you in a dream or did you, did someone tell
00:07:26.769 –> 00:07:34.569
you that that’s what they were doing? Because
00:07:34.569 –> 00:07:37.569
you know, well, do they believe they’re doing
00:07:37.569 –> 00:07:40.699
something different? That’s what we need to discuss.
00:07:40.759 –> 00:07:43.680
I don’t know if they believe they’re doing something
00:07:43.680 –> 00:07:46.259
different or if it’s even possible they’re doing
00:07:46.259 –> 00:07:50.639
something different. Other than following the
00:07:50.639 –> 00:07:56.579
crowd, trying to be a part of the crowd. Yeah,
00:07:56.579 –> 00:08:03.339
and that’s a them thing. Those people can’t possibly
00:08:03.339 –> 00:08:10.100
know why they’re there. If I was there, I would
00:08:10.100 –> 00:08:15.519
know why I’m there, but they don’t. They don’t
00:08:15.519 –> 00:08:18.420
know. If Republicans were protesting, then they
00:08:18.420 –> 00:08:22.040
would know the reasons why they were there. They’d
00:08:22.040 –> 00:08:28.240
have all the right reasons. But since they are
00:08:28.240 –> 00:08:37.809
not us, so they’re stupid. Right. Okay, so specifically
00:08:37.809 –> 00:08:41.409
in this realm, it’s clear to the Democrats protesting,
00:08:41.649 –> 00:08:44.649
it’s not the Republicans. Do Republicans protest?
00:08:45.370 –> 00:08:52.830
Has there been a Republican protest? Would January
00:08:52.830 –> 00:08:56.610
6th be a Republican? A conservative. A conservative
00:08:56.610 –> 00:09:00.850
thing? When they all came together? Because a
00:09:00.850 –> 00:09:03.590
million people showed up. And they were all…
00:09:03.590 –> 00:09:05.299
A million people showed up on the… They were
00:09:05.299 –> 00:09:07.100
all there because their leader. On the mall to
00:09:07.100 –> 00:09:10.799
listen to the president speak. Yeah. Well, because
00:09:10.799 –> 00:09:14.460
he was going to speak. That’s all. Show them
00:09:14.460 –> 00:09:16.580
that there is some solidarity in this movement.
00:09:16.879 –> 00:09:22.620
So a million people showed up. And from one side
00:09:22.620 –> 00:09:25.659
of the story, that’s probably a good example
00:09:25.659 –> 00:09:29.759
because did all of the protesters go there to
00:09:29.759 –> 00:09:33.759
cause an insurrection, to overthrow the government?
00:09:34.200 –> 00:09:36.700
Mm -hmm. Where there are a million people there
00:09:36.700 –> 00:09:38.580
to overthrow the government, that’s the story
00:09:38.580 –> 00:09:43.879
that’s being proposed. Yeah. Is that why they
00:09:43.879 –> 00:09:48.259
were there? I don’t believe that that’s why they
00:09:48.259 –> 00:09:52.019
were there. No. I wasn’t there. I wasn’t there.
00:09:52.460 –> 00:09:57.860
Do we know anyone that was there? Yeah, I’ve
00:09:57.860 –> 00:10:01.740
got a sister that was there. Okay. She was there
00:10:01.740 –> 00:10:03.960
far enough back, didn’t get close to the Capitol,
00:10:04.100 –> 00:10:08.700
but. It wasn’t there early enough to be at the
00:10:08.700 –> 00:10:14.740
front, had to be in the back. Right. Or wasn’t
00:10:14.740 –> 00:10:18.159
excited enough to fight the crowd of a million
00:10:18.159 –> 00:10:20.659
people to get to the front. So just stayed on
00:10:20.659 –> 00:10:24.220
the outskirts. Yeah. And we know what, what can
00:10:24.220 –> 00:10:27.769
happen. I mean, we understand scientifically
00:10:27.769 –> 00:10:31.370
what can happen when you get into a group and
00:10:31.370 –> 00:10:36.110
the excitement is building. I think it’s different
00:10:36.110 –> 00:10:39.210
than group mentality. I mean, I said group and
00:10:39.210 –> 00:10:41.490
that made you think group mentality, but I think
00:10:41.490 –> 00:10:45.269
what I’m talking about is the phenomenon of being
00:10:45.269 –> 00:10:50.149
in a group of people who are all excited about
00:10:50.149 –> 00:10:54.700
whatever they’re doing and things get. more exciting
00:10:54.700 –> 00:10:57.379
because they’re all together it wouldn’t be as
00:10:57.379 –> 00:10:59.620
exciting if everyone had noise canceling headphones
00:10:59.620 –> 00:11:03.799
on and blindfolds they’re they’re not affected
00:11:03.799 –> 00:11:11.919
by the synergy of the group um okay but but that
00:11:11.919 –> 00:11:14.259
what people i mean that never happens you never
00:11:14.259 –> 00:11:16.529
see a group of people all Well, maybe you do
00:11:16.529 –> 00:11:18.629
now because of cell phones. Like you could have
00:11:18.629 –> 00:11:21.149
a thousand people in one area all looking at
00:11:21.149 –> 00:11:22.690
their phones and there’s not a group synergy
00:11:22.690 –> 00:11:26.210
there. But, you know, when people are chanting
00:11:26.210 –> 00:11:28.570
and talking to each other and getting really
00:11:28.570 –> 00:11:32.870
excited, then things can get out of hand pretty
00:11:32.870 –> 00:11:41.029
easy. Out of hand, out of control. The control
00:11:41.029 –> 00:11:46.809
can shift to external. External manipulation.
00:11:47.470 –> 00:11:50.730
Yeah, outside of yourself. You’re there, and
00:11:50.730 –> 00:11:56.549
if you don’t have a good idea of, I am not going
00:11:56.549 –> 00:11:59.549
to let myself do anything stupid today, if you
00:11:59.549 –> 00:12:01.529
haven’t gone into it thinking that specifically,
00:12:01.750 –> 00:12:04.889
then you can easily get pulled into whatever
00:12:04.889 –> 00:12:08.610
activity everyone’s participating in. A stupid
00:12:08.610 –> 00:12:21.539
activity. Okay. So that was… So we’re not here
00:12:21.539 –> 00:12:25.059
to discuss exactly who’s right and who’s wrong
00:12:25.059 –> 00:12:28.320
in a specific situation, but to parse out what
00:12:28.320 –> 00:12:34.480
happens or maybe how to think about these issues
00:12:34.480 –> 00:12:35.980
as they come up because they’re going to come
00:12:35.980 –> 00:12:41.100
up again and again. Right, right. And so my…
00:12:44.009 –> 00:12:50.629
My issue with us versus them is that there is
00:12:50.629 –> 00:12:57.169
no them and there is no us. It’s a thousand people,
00:12:57.330 –> 00:13:01.809
a thousand individuals together with their own
00:13:01.809 –> 00:13:04.870
individual reasons why they would be doing one
00:13:04.870 –> 00:13:06.809
thing or another. And some of them maybe are
00:13:06.809 –> 00:13:09.889
there to impress a girl. I just watched The Majestic
00:13:09.889 –> 00:13:19.570
earlier and this guy. Played by, you know, the
00:13:19.570 –> 00:13:25.970
mask guy from the show. What is his name? I forgot.
00:13:27.129 –> 00:13:30.909
The mask guy. Jim Carrey. Jim Carrey? Yeah. Jim
00:13:30.909 –> 00:13:33.269
Carrey. Jim Carrey. He was in The Majestic? In
00:13:33.269 –> 00:13:36.429
The Majestic. He’s the main character. He, at
00:13:36.429 –> 00:13:39.440
the end. Toward the end, he’s brought into court
00:13:39.440 –> 00:13:42.360
because he attended a communist rally or something
00:13:42.360 –> 00:13:44.500
like that. But the only reason he was there was
00:13:44.500 –> 00:13:48.679
because he was impressing a girl. He had no ties
00:13:48.679 –> 00:13:51.840
with the Communist Party. Absolutely not. He
00:13:51.840 –> 00:13:55.500
just was a horny young man that wanted… He
00:13:55.500 –> 00:13:57.639
happened to sign up at the rally, though. He
00:13:57.639 –> 00:14:00.240
was there. Or be there. Because he was following
00:14:00.240 –> 00:14:05.909
a girl around. Yeah. Right. And so… That’s
00:14:05.909 –> 00:14:08.830
that’s one reason out of a billion reasons why
00:14:08.830 –> 00:14:14.490
someone might be at a protest. But another reason
00:14:14.490 –> 00:14:17.850
might be that they really do fear for the life
00:14:17.850 –> 00:14:21.990
or the safety of their close friend who happens
00:14:21.990 –> 00:14:27.490
to be. You know, here legally, but OK, well.
00:14:29.230 –> 00:14:31.710
And with that, I just feel like saying something
00:14:31.710 –> 00:14:33.590
about that. None of them have close friends because
00:14:33.590 –> 00:14:35.629
if you did, you would not take you and your close
00:14:35.629 –> 00:14:41.009
friend right up next to the police. You would
00:14:41.009 –> 00:14:44.549
leave the place instead of causing attention
00:14:44.549 –> 00:14:47.509
to be dragged to that area. Yeah, you wouldn’t
00:14:47.509 –> 00:14:49.610
take you and your close friend, but you would
00:14:49.610 –> 00:14:55.039
take you. You would want to make the group bigger.
00:14:55.220 –> 00:14:58.179
You would want to show the media how big of a
00:14:58.179 –> 00:15:01.220
group you have, how many people are against this.
00:15:01.620 –> 00:15:05.080
If you feel strongly about it, you tell your
00:15:05.080 –> 00:15:07.059
friend to stay home and say, I will be there
00:15:07.059 –> 00:15:12.519
on behalf of you. I will let one more body be
00:15:12.519 –> 00:15:18.039
counted in this group of anti -whatever activity
00:15:18.039 –> 00:15:25.000
I disagree with. So your face, I’m looking at
00:15:25.000 –> 00:15:28.059
your face on this computer screen. Your face
00:15:28.059 –> 00:15:30.399
tells me that you don’t believe that at all.
00:15:30.440 –> 00:15:33.220
There could be no possible way that somebody
00:15:33.220 –> 00:15:36.019
could have genuine intention. Any of them have
00:15:36.019 –> 00:15:39.820
any friend. They don’t have any. I believe they
00:15:39.820 –> 00:15:44.799
have no friends that are illegal aliens. It’s
00:15:44.799 –> 00:15:50.120
not even possible because they would not go out.
00:15:51.200 –> 00:15:54.360
I’ve got friends that are illegal aliens that
00:15:54.360 –> 00:15:58.019
went through the process, I guess. You might
00:15:58.019 –> 00:16:01.059
say that. Okay. So they came here and then had
00:16:01.059 –> 00:16:04.600
to apply for the appropriate things. There’s
00:16:04.600 –> 00:16:07.720
no way that I’m going to bring them up to anybody
00:16:07.720 –> 00:16:11.059
or try to go and protest for them. We’re going
00:16:11.059 –> 00:16:14.740
to try to stay as quiet as possible. Okay. With
00:16:14.740 –> 00:16:19.500
that. The only reason they’re going to make a
00:16:19.500 –> 00:16:21.440
show is because they want to make a political
00:16:21.440 –> 00:16:24.179
show. It’s not that there’s a number of people.
00:16:25.759 –> 00:16:29.080
If 21 million illegal aliens came to the country,
00:16:30.240 –> 00:16:35.399
gosh, what am I trying to say? The majority of
00:16:35.399 –> 00:16:38.000
them that are going to survive in the country
00:16:38.000 –> 00:16:40.360
still are the ones that are not going to be around
00:16:40.360 –> 00:16:44.419
a community that’s going to make a show. There
00:16:44.419 –> 00:16:48.549
are no safe aliens in Minnesota. Okay. There
00:16:48.549 –> 00:16:50.289
are plenty of safe aliens probably in Nebraska.
00:16:50.610 –> 00:16:53.610
Nebraska is never going to make any scene. You
00:16:53.610 –> 00:16:57.090
can be safe there or maybe even in a warmer climate
00:16:57.090 –> 00:17:01.070
in New Mexico. You’re not going to have any issues.
00:17:01.309 –> 00:17:04.029
Okay. So let me see if I can, if I understand
00:17:04.029 –> 00:17:10.369
what you’re saying. If someone genuinely wanted
00:17:10.369 –> 00:17:13.670
to stay in the United States and that was their…
00:17:13.950 –> 00:17:17.130
primary purpose they would just shut up and stay
00:17:17.130 –> 00:17:22.869
home but the reason because because these people
00:17:22.869 –> 00:17:27.410
are not shutting up and staying home shows that
00:17:27.410 –> 00:17:29.250
that’s not their primary purpose their primary
00:17:29.250 –> 00:17:33.670
purpose is to be a thorn in the side of the system
00:17:33.670 –> 00:17:39.230
is to be the squeaky wheel that’s their purpose
00:17:39.230 –> 00:17:43.529
they want eyes on me Everyone look at me. That’s
00:17:43.529 –> 00:17:46.130
why they’re there, not because they actually,
00:17:46.309 –> 00:17:49.289
their primary purpose. Maybe they do care about
00:17:49.289 –> 00:17:53.329
their friends that are here that have been through
00:17:53.329 –> 00:17:55.549
the process and maybe are a little bit late on
00:17:55.549 –> 00:17:57.710
their green card application or whatever, however
00:17:57.710 –> 00:18:00.369
it goes. Maybe that is one of their purposes,
00:18:00.450 –> 00:18:05.329
but it’s not their primary purpose. Is that what
00:18:05.329 –> 00:18:10.740
you’re saying? Okay. Do I have it right? Yeah,
00:18:10.799 –> 00:18:15.180
they may know someone, right? And in my view
00:18:15.180 –> 00:18:20.920
of them, they don’t know anybody. But maybe they
00:18:20.920 –> 00:18:24.220
do. So it’s possible, it’s potential that they
00:18:24.220 –> 00:18:27.039
do know someone and they have a valid reason
00:18:27.039 –> 00:18:31.519
to step up and say, I know these five people
00:18:31.519 –> 00:18:33.220
and these five people, I’m not going to tell
00:18:33.220 –> 00:18:35.240
you where they are, but I’m here to combat you
00:18:35.240 –> 00:18:37.220
so that you don’t go close to where they are.
00:18:37.279 –> 00:18:41.690
Like the birds who… The killdeer birds, they’re
00:18:41.690 –> 00:18:43.849
a little bird that lays their eggs on the ground.
00:18:43.990 –> 00:18:46.289
And then whenever someone comes close to where
00:18:46.289 –> 00:18:48.690
the eggs are, they go and act like they’re wounded
00:18:48.690 –> 00:18:51.049
and try to lead you away from where the nest
00:18:51.049 –> 00:18:55.130
is. So they’ll leave the nest long enough to
00:18:55.130 –> 00:18:57.369
get you to go a different direction. And then
00:18:57.369 –> 00:18:59.430
they’ll circle around and warm their eggs again.
00:19:00.650 –> 00:19:04.890
So looking like they’re wounded so that you’ll
00:19:04.890 –> 00:19:07.799
follow them and decoy away from. where you’re
00:19:07.799 –> 00:19:10.180
at. So maybe there are people trying to decoy.
00:19:16.940 –> 00:19:21.400
So that’s just the issue that’s going on now.
00:19:22.140 –> 00:19:23.859
We’re not going to come to an answer on that.
00:19:23.900 –> 00:19:30.339
And I don’t really feel damaged by that or upset
00:19:30.339 –> 00:19:40.619
by that even. But when you get closer to who
00:19:40.619 –> 00:19:46.839
you are, to an us -them thing, if we happen to
00:19:46.839 –> 00:19:50.279
be, everything that we do is either because we
00:19:50.279 –> 00:19:55.759
do it and they don’t do it. So we have disagreements,
00:19:55.799 –> 00:19:59.000
a disagreement of a group or of a people or of
00:19:59.000 –> 00:20:04.740
an individual. Those disagreements and how do
00:20:04.740 –> 00:20:12.470
you treat disagreements? Compromise is a word.
00:20:14.670 –> 00:20:20.849
Ideally, both sides would seek first to understand
00:20:20.849 –> 00:20:27.230
the other side. But if both sides don’t, the
00:20:27.230 –> 00:20:32.470
one thinking person has to do that. Us. Us has
00:20:32.470 –> 00:20:35.630
to start thinking and seek first to understand
00:20:35.630 –> 00:20:41.289
them. Why are they doing? What are their motives?
00:20:41.490 –> 00:20:45.309
What are their values? What do they value so
00:20:45.309 –> 00:20:53.049
much that makes them want this? Whatever they’re
00:20:53.049 –> 00:21:00.650
doing. Okay. And you’d enter that, I mean, trying
00:21:00.650 –> 00:21:03.329
to understand. So if you listen to them, listening
00:21:03.329 –> 00:21:08.869
to them, trying to understand. Getting your mind
00:21:08.869 –> 00:21:14.490
into where they are. Empathy comes up. Is empathy
00:21:14.490 –> 00:21:18.430
a way to do it? From what you know about empathy?
00:21:22.250 –> 00:21:25.490
Wasn’t it Charlie Kirk that said empathy isn’t
00:21:25.490 –> 00:21:29.650
a real thing? Right. And that’s what I’m pointing
00:21:29.650 –> 00:21:32.210
to. The world says empathy. Walk a mile in their
00:21:32.210 –> 00:21:35.069
shoes, as you understand. See if you can sit
00:21:35.069 –> 00:21:38.029
on their side. Sit in their chair. and see the
00:21:38.029 –> 00:21:45.170
world from that. Empathy is, and it was Charlie
00:21:45.170 –> 00:21:49.430
Kirk that said, it’s false. It doesn’t work.
00:21:50.710 –> 00:21:54.750
That’s really not what you need to do. That makes
00:21:54.750 –> 00:22:00.009
you soft. Just allowing everything everyone else
00:22:00.009 –> 00:22:02.150
does, saying you certainly have a good reason
00:22:02.150 –> 00:22:05.779
for it. But that eliminates persuasion. I’m not
00:22:05.779 –> 00:22:09.380
really sure. I don’t know Charlie’s full argument
00:22:09.380 –> 00:22:12.839
on that. Yeah. Because it’s just a clip that
00:22:12.839 –> 00:22:18.240
was shared around is all it was. Yeah. But the
00:22:18.240 –> 00:22:21.619
full argument, I would suppose, is you have to
00:22:21.619 –> 00:22:26.099
be able to reason, reason together, logic, something
00:22:26.099 –> 00:22:30.700
through. And that’s part of understanding is.
00:22:31.660 –> 00:22:35.500
Seek to understand before being understood, but
00:22:35.500 –> 00:22:37.200
being understood is still part of that whole
00:22:37.200 –> 00:22:42.279
communication. Yeah. I’m reading a book that
00:22:42.279 –> 00:22:49.019
describes some scientific research around disagreement.
00:22:49.559 –> 00:22:59.079
And one thing that was observed, I suppose, that’s
00:22:59.079 –> 00:23:02.720
the word. One thing that was shown by the research
00:23:02.720 –> 00:23:07.420
was once you say to yourself, I disagree with
00:23:07.420 –> 00:23:12.220
what they’re saying, then that makes your brain
00:23:12.220 –> 00:23:15.759
stop considering everything else that follows
00:23:15.759 –> 00:23:17.799
whatever they’re saying. As soon as you say,
00:23:17.839 –> 00:23:23.039
I disagree, nothing can convince you of anything
00:23:23.039 –> 00:23:26.180
else. Like from anything else that they say,
00:23:26.240 –> 00:23:29.119
nothing can convince you otherwise. that you
00:23:29.119 –> 00:23:35.140
disagree. Right. Which is clear. And just in
00:23:35.140 –> 00:23:36.920
you saying that, I didn’t hear any word that
00:23:36.920 –> 00:23:40.380
you said because I already know what I think.
00:23:40.700 –> 00:23:43.819
And now I didn’t hear that, but I was just trying
00:23:43.819 –> 00:23:47.559
to hear it. You were trying, but you couldn’t
00:23:47.559 –> 00:23:50.279
because your brain was like, that’s the end.
00:23:50.279 –> 00:23:52.000
It was already shut off. It was already shut
00:23:52.000 –> 00:23:58.819
off. Because I know that, what do I know? Whatever
00:23:58.819 –> 00:24:01.900
I know is me is us. And whatever you’re talking
00:24:01.900 –> 00:24:04.500
about from that book is a damn book trying to.
00:24:05.700 –> 00:24:09.000
And I, that’s just an example. I don’t know that
00:24:09.000 –> 00:24:11.539
I really feel that strongly about it. So I did
00:24:11.539 –> 00:24:17.240
hear that you listen to, your brain tends to
00:24:17.240 –> 00:24:19.960
turn off what you’re hearing because you’re forming
00:24:19.960 –> 00:24:24.950
up how to make your next argument. It strengthens
00:24:24.950 –> 00:24:26.890
you. When you say, I disagree, you’re strengthened
00:24:26.890 –> 00:24:28.829
by it. And then I disagree for these reasons.
00:24:28.950 –> 00:24:31.210
And I’m thinking about my reasons for disagreeing
00:24:31.210 –> 00:24:34.190
rather than trying to accept what’s going on
00:24:34.190 –> 00:24:37.670
out there. Understand more. Trying to hear. To
00:24:37.670 –> 00:24:47.769
understand more of it. But persuasion has to
00:24:47.769 –> 00:24:50.109
be a part of it somewhere. So you do need to…
00:24:52.009 –> 00:24:55.690
have a persuasive argument that you’re formulating
00:24:55.690 –> 00:24:59.329
or lining up or have thought enough about it
00:24:59.329 –> 00:25:03.210
continually that it’s an easy direction, you
00:25:03.210 –> 00:25:04.630
know, that this is the direction you’re going
00:25:04.630 –> 00:25:09.690
to go. And clearly the direction I wanted to
00:25:09.690 –> 00:25:12.309
go with that was identifying persuasion. We were
00:25:12.309 –> 00:25:17.069
talking about disagreements. Disagreements require
00:25:17.069 –> 00:25:22.430
persuasion, I think. Yeah. in the process somewhere.
00:25:22.809 –> 00:25:25.609
They require understanding as well. They require
00:25:25.609 –> 00:25:32.089
allowance, letting them do that. I don’t believe,
00:25:32.289 –> 00:25:35.769
well, what you said earlier, or what I said maybe,
00:25:35.970 –> 00:25:39.130
empathy. They don’t necessarily require empathy.
00:25:39.349 –> 00:25:42.210
They require understanding. And I also don’t
00:25:42.210 –> 00:25:44.910
think they require compromise because I don’t
00:25:44.910 –> 00:25:49.200
believe that I believe in compromise. I think
00:25:49.200 –> 00:25:51.400
compromise, you’re automatically losing. It’s
00:25:51.400 –> 00:25:54.319
the win -lose situation. You don’t want to lose
00:25:54.319 –> 00:25:56.680
something. You both have to win. Getting to a
00:25:56.680 –> 00:25:59.119
win -win is seeking better understanding and
00:25:59.119 –> 00:26:03.200
better persuasion. Is that how that has to work?
00:26:04.960 –> 00:26:08.960
Yeah, if someone is persuaded, then they have
00:26:08.960 –> 00:26:14.029
had a change of mind. They are persuaded. If
00:26:14.029 –> 00:26:16.730
you are persuaded, someone has given you information
00:26:16.730 –> 00:26:23.349
that has made you reconsider your position, and
00:26:23.349 –> 00:26:27.210
now you are of a different position than you
00:26:27.210 –> 00:26:30.849
were before. I think persuasion is a valid part
00:26:30.849 –> 00:26:34.630
of an argument that reaches a conclusion of agreement.
00:26:37.549 –> 00:26:48.720
Okay. On the object at hand then, if you happen
00:26:48.720 –> 00:26:54.039
to be here in an illegal status, the persuasion
00:26:54.039 –> 00:26:56.559
that the government, the administration is trying
00:26:56.559 –> 00:26:58.319
to do, they’ll say, if you’ll self -report, we’ll
00:26:58.319 –> 00:27:00.059
give you a thousand bucks. We’ll give you some
00:27:00.059 –> 00:27:04.420
incentive to be persuaded to leave the country
00:27:04.420 –> 00:27:07.200
on your own and then come back through the proper
00:27:07.200 –> 00:27:10.819
channels. So there’s that offer and there’s been
00:27:10.819 –> 00:27:12.359
plenty of people that have taken that offer.
00:27:14.050 –> 00:27:16.849
But if they don’t take that offer, then they
00:27:16.849 –> 00:27:18.789
get to the point that they have to be identified.
00:27:18.809 –> 00:27:21.630
If they are identified, then they’re tracked
00:27:21.630 –> 00:27:26.450
down by the authorities and they’re no longer
00:27:26.450 –> 00:27:31.970
persuaded. They are detained. They’re made to
00:27:31.970 –> 00:27:37.349
comply, coerced into compliance to the deportation
00:27:37.349 –> 00:27:43.559
rule. Those people that are against that, So
00:27:43.559 –> 00:27:54.619
that’s the factual legal side of it. What is
00:27:54.619 –> 00:28:00.640
lacking in understanding then? I don’t know that
00:28:00.640 –> 00:28:02.599
there’s any lack in understanding from these
00:28:02.599 –> 00:28:11.259
two sides. It sounds like you’re saying that
00:28:11.259 –> 00:28:17.180
you understand fully the position of them. Right.
00:28:17.279 –> 00:28:22.640
That there’s not anything that, if I tell them
00:28:22.640 –> 00:28:25.319
what you believe they’re doing it for, they would
00:28:25.319 –> 00:28:32.200
all agree. Yeah. We want, they clearly want ice
00:28:32.200 –> 00:28:35.400
out. They clearly don’t want federal intrusion.
00:28:35.519 –> 00:28:37.279
They clearly want to protect their neighbors.
00:28:37.319 –> 00:28:39.380
They want to keep their cities exactly the way
00:28:39.380 –> 00:28:44.799
they are now. They want to keep all of the people
00:28:44.799 –> 00:28:50.799
there that would be detained and deported. They
00:28:50.799 –> 00:28:55.599
want to keep them there. And the understanding
00:28:55.599 –> 00:28:58.200
the other side is trying to give out is, well,
00:28:58.240 –> 00:29:03.819
these people are criminals. and all these bad
00:29:03.819 –> 00:29:05.759
things they’ve done, we’re going to get rid of
00:29:05.759 –> 00:29:08.599
them. All the bad people is who we’re targeting.
00:29:09.759 –> 00:29:13.559
And everyone else, they’ve always said it’s the
00:29:13.559 –> 00:29:15.519
other people that hang around them. So if someone
00:29:15.519 –> 00:29:19.019
isn’t doing anything bad or wrong, they’re not
00:29:19.019 –> 00:29:20.900
necessarily going to target and go try to find
00:29:20.900 –> 00:29:23.759
that person. But if he happens to be with the
00:29:23.759 –> 00:29:26.059
other people, if they’re congregating together,
00:29:26.259 –> 00:29:30.440
they’ll take the group together. And if you can’t
00:29:30.440 –> 00:29:35.619
identify that you, if you don’t have a driver’s
00:29:35.619 –> 00:29:40.079
license or a valid reason to be in the country,
00:29:40.160 –> 00:29:43.799
a passport, a visa, whatever those things are,
00:29:43.859 –> 00:29:49.099
a green card, then you’re not going to, and you’re
00:29:49.099 –> 00:29:52.279
questioned about it. You can’t provide it. Then
00:29:52.279 –> 00:29:54.619
clearly you’re against the law. The law does
00:29:54.619 –> 00:29:57.119
have to take precedence. And that’s the understanding
00:29:57.119 –> 00:30:02.019
side of the. of the law side. So why would a
00:30:02.019 –> 00:30:04.319
protester go against that? If someone doesn’t
00:30:04.319 –> 00:30:06.819
have a green card, they’re not here legally.
00:30:08.380 –> 00:30:14.940
How do you have a persuasive point to say they’re
00:30:14.940 –> 00:30:18.240
here illegally and the law says to deport them,
00:30:18.339 –> 00:30:26.599
don’t deport them? Have you asked any of them?
00:30:28.540 –> 00:30:32.779
What what they. Well, I’m asking you right now.
00:30:32.819 –> 00:30:36.759
I’m not I’m not anti. You don’t necessarily have
00:30:36.759 –> 00:30:40.920
that. I’m not anti deportation. I’m anti. I’m
00:30:40.920 –> 00:30:44.740
pro leave well enough alone. But, you know, certainly
00:30:44.740 –> 00:30:49.420
the criminals, they should. Let’s get rid of
00:30:49.420 –> 00:30:52.000
the criminals. But we need to have the understanding
00:30:52.000 –> 00:30:55.880
of our prison system anyway. So. May as well
00:30:55.880 –> 00:31:02.380
overhaul every single thing. But I can’t… The
00:31:02.380 –> 00:31:06.440
problem I’m seeing here is that you’re still
00:31:06.440 –> 00:31:09.019
believing that all of them have the same mind.
00:31:10.319 –> 00:31:17.000
But we know that they don’t. Like, Protester
00:31:17.000 –> 00:31:23.680
A is not of the same mind of Protester B. Like
00:31:23.680 –> 00:31:27.339
you have very different motives for being anywhere.
00:31:32.920 –> 00:31:36.640
Not very different. You may have different motives.
00:31:36.779 –> 00:31:42.599
Well, if you zoom way out on the spectrum, then
00:31:42.599 –> 00:31:45.740
this point and this point are super close together.
00:31:45.839 –> 00:31:49.960
But if you zoom in, they’re miles apart. So,
00:31:49.980 –> 00:31:52.579
I mean, it depends on how far away from the…
00:31:53.019 –> 00:31:57.579
from the picture you are like the the earth from
00:31:57.579 –> 00:32:00.839
a billion miles away is a smooth ball but if
00:32:00.839 –> 00:32:04.440
you’re standing on it there’s a 2 000 mile high
00:32:04.440 –> 00:32:07.220
mountain over there or having it’s not miles
00:32:07.220 –> 00:32:10.059
right 2 000 feet you know mountain over there
00:32:10.059 –> 00:32:15.839
and i certainly can’t rub my hand over that so
00:32:20.349 –> 00:32:23.849
The motives are vastly different when you are
00:32:23.849 –> 00:32:28.450
right next to them. I don’t think that you have
00:32:28.450 –> 00:32:31.349
been right next to them. I challenge you to be
00:32:31.349 –> 00:32:35.190
right next to them sometime. I went. I did. And
00:32:35.190 –> 00:32:38.069
we mentioned it a bit ago. We did. The protesters.
00:32:38.130 –> 00:32:40.369
And I talked with one. And one said, I did just
00:32:40.369 –> 00:32:42.630
come from work. And I said, well, what does your
00:32:42.630 –> 00:32:50.720
sign mean? That’s misinformation, disinformation.
00:32:50.720 –> 00:32:54.220
It’s understanding, seeking to understand. I
00:32:54.220 –> 00:32:57.759
don’t have the same agreement of what she was
00:32:57.759 –> 00:33:03.140
talking about as the challenges she had with
00:33:03.140 –> 00:33:07.900
the, it was a no kings rally. Why do you think
00:33:07.900 –> 00:33:09.859
that there’s going to be a king? I mean, that’s
00:33:09.859 –> 00:33:13.720
a discussion you can have. But people are going
00:33:13.720 –> 00:33:18.119
from their own bias, their own brain. And this
00:33:18.119 –> 00:33:20.920
is what I believe. I believe that there’s these
00:33:20.920 –> 00:33:23.019
things going on that are wrong. I believe that,
00:33:23.039 –> 00:33:25.660
well, one thing they’re saying is that ICE is
00:33:25.660 –> 00:33:29.400
out there just doxing everybody. ICE is being
00:33:29.400 –> 00:33:32.819
doxed. They’re just detaining everybody and asking
00:33:32.819 –> 00:33:34.539
everyone, you know, if you’ve got brown skin,
00:33:34.680 –> 00:33:37.539
I’m going to ask you if you have your ID. But
00:33:37.539 –> 00:33:40.680
if you have your ID, does it matter if they ask
00:33:40.680 –> 00:33:44.319
you or not? Watch some of these sovereign citizen
00:33:44.319 –> 00:33:46.920
things that… Even though they have IDs, they’re
00:33:46.920 –> 00:33:48.740
saying, I’m not going to show you. I don’t have
00:33:48.740 –> 00:33:53.640
to. Yeah. But sovereign citizens are just a different
00:33:53.640 –> 00:33:56.299
animal. They have a different understanding.
00:34:01.160 –> 00:34:03.960
And whether it’s right or wrong, I mean, it’s
00:34:03.960 –> 00:34:08.480
against law, so law has the right to operate
00:34:08.480 –> 00:34:14.829
outside of it. What’s against the law? To travel
00:34:14.829 –> 00:34:17.869
without a registration on your vehicle. But is
00:34:17.869 –> 00:34:19.969
it against the law to walk around without proof
00:34:19.969 –> 00:34:26.750
of citizenship? No. But you may still be arrested.
00:34:27.550 –> 00:34:34.500
Detained. Detained. Arrested. Yeah. Well, you’re
00:34:34.500 –> 00:34:35.820
going to have to sit here until we can figure
00:34:35.820 –> 00:34:37.119
out if you really have. Arrested in the literal
00:34:37.119 –> 00:34:39.460
definition of it, if something is in motion,
00:34:39.559 –> 00:34:41.599
then it suddenly stops because of an outside
00:34:41.599 –> 00:34:45.059
force that has been arrested, right? So arrested
00:34:45.059 –> 00:34:48.219
and detained mean the same thing, except… Are
00:34:48.219 –> 00:34:50.360
they the same thing? Except arrested. Yeah, I
00:34:50.360 –> 00:34:53.539
don’t know. Literally, we could talk about that,
00:34:53.599 –> 00:34:56.619
but that’s… Right. There’s no crime. There
00:34:56.619 –> 00:34:58.219
doesn’t have to be a crime. That’s why they use
00:34:58.219 –> 00:35:00.260
the word detained. Because I didn’t do anything
00:35:00.260 –> 00:35:02.500
wrong. No, but we’re detaining you until we can
00:35:02.500 –> 00:35:07.800
identify if you’re valid. Yeah. And then we’ve
00:35:07.800 –> 00:35:09.519
got to check it through the system. When I saw
00:35:09.519 –> 00:35:11.719
one video that they just had to get the response
00:35:11.719 –> 00:35:13.659
back from the system that this isn’t a valid
00:35:13.659 –> 00:35:16.480
driver’s license. Yeah. Well, yes, it is. Thank
00:35:16.480 –> 00:35:19.219
you. Have a good day. Yeah. I think if I were
00:35:19.219 –> 00:35:22.400
to protest against that, that would be one facet
00:35:22.400 –> 00:35:24.719
of the whole system that I would be protesting
00:35:24.719 –> 00:35:30.280
against is. guilty unless proven innocent. That’s
00:35:30.280 –> 00:35:34.659
how it’s operating. Okay. So that’s what they’re
00:35:34.659 –> 00:35:37.300
talking about due process. They believe that…
00:35:37.300 –> 00:35:41.420
Well, due process is a subjective term, too,
00:35:41.539 –> 00:35:44.940
because due process on one side might mean leave
00:35:44.940 –> 00:35:47.300
well enough alone, and the other side would mean
00:35:47.300 –> 00:35:50.099
stop everything until you can prove that it’s
00:35:50.099 –> 00:36:02.050
okay. No. Well, who’s going to stop it? Stop
00:36:02.050 –> 00:36:04.230
everything until you can prove it’s OK. Who’s
00:36:04.230 –> 00:36:07.510
who’s the one stopping it? The powers that be.
00:36:07.670 –> 00:36:14.369
I don’t know. Yeah. The the police. That’s detaining,
00:36:14.389 –> 00:36:18.190
though. So that’s not right. Yeah, that’s that’s
00:36:18.190 –> 00:36:21.849
the I I don’t agree with the detain everyone
00:36:21.849 –> 00:36:25.920
that you suspect is illegal. Until you can prove
00:36:25.920 –> 00:36:29.760
that they’re not illegal. I think that’s too
00:36:29.760 –> 00:36:33.239
far of an overreach. I think it should be proved
00:36:33.239 –> 00:36:40.039
they’re not allowed first. Yeah, take Rusty out.
00:36:41.920 –> 00:36:50.539
Go. Go out, Rusty. You have the voter idea, too,
00:36:50.599 –> 00:36:57.159
of having your ID in order to vote. Yeah. That
00:36:57.159 –> 00:37:01.420
would give everyone a chance to show their ID
00:37:01.420 –> 00:37:04.159
appropriately. And if you can’t show your ID,
00:37:04.260 –> 00:37:06.820
then you can’t vote. But maybe you can be questioned
00:37:06.820 –> 00:37:10.079
as to whether you’re here legally or not. If
00:37:10.079 –> 00:37:13.159
you come to the voter polls and ICE happens to
00:37:13.159 –> 00:37:15.039
be standing there and you don’t have an ID and
00:37:15.039 –> 00:37:18.960
you can’t prove who you are, the question is,
00:37:18.980 –> 00:37:20.860
why would you want to come and vote anyway? So
00:37:20.860 –> 00:37:23.179
people just aren’t going to go to the polls if
00:37:23.179 –> 00:37:26.260
they’re illegal. Yeah. If they have to show an
00:37:26.260 –> 00:37:29.659
ID and they know that everyone’s watching. Yeah.
00:37:29.719 –> 00:37:31.500
So if there’s a place you have to show your ID,
00:37:31.579 –> 00:37:34.820
like the liquor store or the grocery store, if
00:37:34.820 –> 00:37:38.900
you happen to be buying cigarettes, anyone can
00:37:38.900 –> 00:37:43.179
be watching there. I don’t have an ID. You’re
00:37:43.179 –> 00:37:45.119
not going to even go and try to buy it if you
00:37:45.119 –> 00:37:47.480
don’t have the ID. Right. You’re going to automatically
00:37:47.480 –> 00:37:49.440
contract someone else to go in and buy it for
00:37:49.440 –> 00:37:53.730
you. Right. Yeah. If I couldn’t find my driver’s
00:37:53.730 –> 00:37:56.050
license, I would just know that I have no proof
00:37:56.050 –> 00:38:02.250
that I’m over 21 besides I don’t even have anything.
00:38:02.349 –> 00:38:04.730
Like my gray hairs, but people can go gray when
00:38:04.730 –> 00:38:10.289
they’re 16. So I have no proof. Yeah. And it
00:38:10.289 –> 00:38:14.309
doesn’t matter. But you wouldn’t go and try to
00:38:14.309 –> 00:38:17.349
make a purchase that requires an ID. You would
00:38:17.349 –> 00:38:20.730
say, yeah, you go make the purchase for me. I’ll
00:38:20.730 –> 00:38:23.670
pay you back. Don’t worry about it. And someone
00:38:23.670 –> 00:38:25.110
else will go in the store and make the purchase
00:38:25.110 –> 00:38:26.869
and bring it out to you. Yeah. And that’s the
00:38:26.869 –> 00:38:39.570
way it’s done. Yeah. So are we making any progress?
00:38:39.809 –> 00:38:44.429
I don’t know. So you told me you visited a No
00:38:44.429 –> 00:38:49.250
Kings rally and you spoke to one person. Right.
00:38:49.920 –> 00:38:52.500
Since you spoke to that one person, do you believe
00:38:52.500 –> 00:38:57.659
that you know the mental, that you know the mind
00:38:57.659 –> 00:39:00.280
of all the people? There were three or four.
00:39:01.300 –> 00:39:03.079
Four people were standing there talking. We were
00:39:03.079 –> 00:39:04.440
talking in the group. And then one of them, I
00:39:04.440 –> 00:39:07.139
walked with her back to the car as she was continuing
00:39:07.139 –> 00:39:09.980
to say what she was saying. And she just got
00:39:09.980 –> 00:39:14.119
off work. And, you know, so I was impressed that
00:39:14.119 –> 00:39:17.260
they all came there independently. So I do agree.
00:39:17.420 –> 00:39:19.750
They all came there independently. But there
00:39:19.750 –> 00:39:23.329
was a plan for them to meet. The signs, she didn’t
00:39:23.329 –> 00:39:26.130
have a sign. She was holding a sign that someone
00:39:26.130 –> 00:39:28.710
else took. So there was someone that brought
00:39:28.710 –> 00:39:30.610
the sign. Someone was responsible for the signage.
00:39:31.309 –> 00:39:35.369
Or a group of people or a number of them. She
00:39:35.369 –> 00:39:49.340
just got back in her car and drove off. I don’t
00:39:49.340 –> 00:39:52.980
know anyone that will talk long enough of that
00:39:52.980 –> 00:39:59.699
mindset to do that. She was that mindset. You
00:39:59.699 –> 00:40:02.460
don’t know anyone of that mindset. There’s a
00:40:02.460 –> 00:40:06.039
them that you have just… To talk long enough.
00:40:07.019 –> 00:40:10.079
Yeah, all of them. All of them will not talk
00:40:10.079 –> 00:40:13.280
long enough. I’m sure that you can find a handful
00:40:13.280 –> 00:40:27.679
that will talk long enough. I think you are placing
00:40:27.679 –> 00:40:32.260
all of them into a box of people that are only
00:40:32.260 –> 00:40:36.019
angry and will only talk with their talking points
00:40:36.019 –> 00:40:38.099
and will not carry on any sort of conversation.
00:40:43.219 –> 00:40:48.320
Okay. And so in order to know that that is true,
00:40:48.500 –> 00:40:51.679
you would have to test it. You would. It would
00:40:51.679 –> 00:40:55.690
have to be tested with all. 1 .2 million people.
00:40:55.789 –> 00:40:59.650
Yeah. That have that in that they complex. You
00:40:59.650 –> 00:41:02.429
would. You would have to. And would you stop
00:41:02.429 –> 00:41:05.429
at some point and say, OK, I can see that they
00:41:05.429 –> 00:41:08.369
all think different things from each other. Like
00:41:08.369 –> 00:41:11.409
at some point, would it be obvious or would you
00:41:11.409 –> 00:41:16.630
have to test all 1 .2 million of them? In order
00:41:16.630 –> 00:41:19.969
to believe that they all have their own reasons
00:41:19.969 –> 00:41:23.880
and they are not all being led. With a carrot
00:41:23.880 –> 00:41:29.320
and a stick by one person, one entity, you know,
00:41:29.340 –> 00:41:32.480
hypothetical. One puppet master. One puppet master.
00:41:32.599 –> 00:41:45.400
They’re all, yeah. Would anything change, change
00:41:45.400 –> 00:41:48.079
my understanding? That’s what, you know, if I
00:41:48.079 –> 00:41:51.480
talked to 10 people and I was able to talk with
00:41:51.480 –> 00:41:55.570
them for. Two hours. And let’s say five of those
00:41:55.570 –> 00:41:59.690
10 people were bused in by some outside group
00:41:59.690 –> 00:42:03.730
and paid $500 each to be there for that whole
00:42:03.730 –> 00:42:06.110
day. Let’s say five of them were, but the other
00:42:06.110 –> 00:42:09.489
five were not. Would that change your mind? Would
00:42:09.489 –> 00:42:12.090
that change anything about what you think about
00:42:12.090 –> 00:42:16.789
them? I don’t know if that really changes the
00:42:16.789 –> 00:42:23.630
scenario at all. I’m not concerned about the
00:42:23.630 –> 00:42:25.469
fact that they’re individuals. They are individuals.
00:42:25.949 –> 00:42:28.469
Certainly they are. Everyone that goes to a football
00:42:28.469 –> 00:42:30.829
game may have different reasons to be there.
00:42:30.949 –> 00:42:33.869
Like you’re saying, they’re not all cheering
00:42:33.869 –> 00:42:38.150
for the same team even. But they’re in the arena.
00:42:39.030 –> 00:42:41.269
Maybe some of them aren’t cheering for any team.
00:42:41.349 –> 00:42:44.750
They’re just going with the girl with them. And
00:42:44.750 –> 00:42:47.230
maybe she’s not cheering for a team. Whatever.
00:42:48.250 –> 00:42:52.980
Reasons. There’s all kinds of reasons. So that
00:42:52.980 –> 00:42:56.599
doesn’t help the reason the game is there. So
00:42:56.599 –> 00:43:01.039
what my biggest question is, why would you have
00:43:01.039 –> 00:43:03.980
the football stadium in the first place? And
00:43:03.980 –> 00:43:07.039
that’s what I’m arguing against. Okay. Okay.
00:43:07.500 –> 00:43:10.940
Yeah. We’ve got a stadium that attracts people
00:43:10.940 –> 00:43:13.639
and whatever reason they’re attracted, they’re
00:43:13.639 –> 00:43:17.300
all of the same mindset, spectator sport. So
00:43:17.300 –> 00:43:20.619
it’s the spectator sport. It’s the protest. It’s
00:43:20.619 –> 00:43:25.860
the understanding. And everyone there would have
00:43:25.860 –> 00:43:29.780
roughly the same opinion on that spectator sport.
00:43:30.500 –> 00:43:33.840
We believe that it’s a good thing. We’re participating
00:43:33.840 –> 00:43:37.579
because we don’t believe it’s evil. Those who
00:43:37.579 –> 00:43:41.119
believe it’s evil of us will not go to that spectator
00:43:41.119 –> 00:43:45.219
sport arena. Yeah. Even if the girl that you
00:43:45.219 –> 00:43:50.710
like is going to go there. So is that a valid
00:43:50.710 –> 00:43:54.469
us -them? The people at the game and the people
00:43:54.469 –> 00:44:00.989
not at the game. Yeah, the people that don’t
00:44:00.989 –> 00:44:04.429
participate, the abstainers from spectator sports.
00:44:04.889 –> 00:44:08.030
And do they abstain because they hate the game
00:44:08.030 –> 00:44:12.530
or because they are just not available? Well,
00:44:12.610 –> 00:44:17.250
all kinds of other reasons. just work all the
00:44:17.250 –> 00:44:21.630
time, or maybe they’re afraid of the bomb going
00:44:21.630 –> 00:44:24.409
off where there’s 60 ,000 people in one place.
00:44:24.929 –> 00:44:26.670
So they’re never going to be around large crowds
00:44:26.670 –> 00:44:29.110
of people. They’re just, you know, I don’t like,
00:44:29.110 –> 00:44:31.469
or I’m anxious. If I get more than five people
00:44:31.469 –> 00:44:33.369
in a group, I’m not going to be there. So you
00:44:33.369 –> 00:44:36.849
got those people. Yeah. But the other ones that
00:44:36.849 –> 00:44:38.650
just say it’s senseless. I’m not going to pay
00:44:38.650 –> 00:44:43.400
my $32 to get into a facility with. 60 ,000 other
00:44:43.400 –> 00:44:46.480
people. Yeah. We have the Super Bowl coming up
00:44:46.480 –> 00:44:53.659
this Sunday. Yeah. And we looked up how much
00:44:53.659 –> 00:44:56.039
the tickets cost and the cheapest tickets cost
00:44:56.039 –> 00:45:00.800
$4 ,500. The average ticket price is like between
00:45:00.800 –> 00:45:07.099
$7 ,500 and $8 ,000. That’s medium seats or $8
00:45:07.099 –> 00:45:16.019
,000. Wow. Yeah. So I will intentionally abstain
00:45:16.019 –> 00:45:20.940
from attending that football game any year unless
00:45:20.940 –> 00:45:26.239
I can get in free. If I win a contest, I’m going.
00:45:26.559 –> 00:45:30.039
Yeah. Well, if someone that owns the box invites
00:45:30.039 –> 00:45:34.179
you, you’d probably go. Yeah. You know, because
00:45:34.179 –> 00:45:36.380
you’ve got the sponsors and the stadium owners
00:45:36.380 –> 00:45:38.800
and those people that have a box and they can
00:45:38.800 –> 00:45:42.349
invite 20 people. Yeah. So you could be invited
00:45:42.349 –> 00:45:45.909
for free. You don’t have to buy your ticket.
00:45:46.110 –> 00:45:52.289
Yeah. As Donald Trump mentioned in his Art of
00:45:52.289 –> 00:45:56.230
the Deal book that he had box seats to a game
00:45:56.230 –> 00:46:02.469
or something, season box seats to some something.
00:46:02.690 –> 00:46:05.289
And he had to give away like all of the tickets.
00:46:05.610 –> 00:46:07.690
He was always handing them out to his friends
00:46:07.690 –> 00:46:09.570
and stuff because he was too busy to ever attend.
00:46:10.300 –> 00:46:13.579
Anyway. Yeah, he couldn’t get there. So you have
00:46:13.579 –> 00:46:15.059
to have someone fill the box because you paid
00:46:15.059 –> 00:46:17.300
for it. You paid for it. I was just thinking,
00:46:17.420 –> 00:46:20.239
you know, even your local university has the
00:46:20.239 –> 00:46:24.460
box seats area and the football stadium. I was
00:46:24.460 –> 00:46:25.940
thinking at some point, you know, it wouldn’t
00:46:25.940 –> 00:46:29.460
be bad to buy that, buy a box. And, you know,
00:46:29.480 –> 00:46:32.079
you’ve got your 10 seats that you can share around
00:46:32.079 –> 00:46:33.800
with whoever you want to invite to the game.
00:46:33.920 –> 00:46:37.909
Yeah. So if I were. to be a spectator sport,
00:46:38.070 –> 00:46:39.849
that’s the way I would participate in it, is
00:46:39.849 –> 00:46:44.329
I would appreciate having the box, the area that
00:46:44.329 –> 00:46:47.170
then you invite people to. Yeah, that’s just
00:46:47.170 –> 00:46:50.150
you and your anti -crowd. From a company’s…
00:46:50.150 –> 00:46:52.650
I wonder if that’s why you… Right, right. You
00:46:52.650 –> 00:46:55.250
hate the protest idea so much is because you’re
00:46:55.250 –> 00:47:00.210
so anti -crowd anyway. I’m anti -crowd. Yeah.
00:47:02.710 –> 00:47:06.070
Yeah, like any event that I go to. There’s always
00:47:06.070 –> 00:47:08.670
empty seats somewhere. I moved from the seat
00:47:08.670 –> 00:47:12.050
I was assigned to where there’s space. Yeah.
00:47:13.289 –> 00:47:15.429
I’ll sit where there’s space. You can hear just
00:47:15.429 –> 00:47:19.230
fine in any facility. And they rarely fill up
00:47:19.230 –> 00:47:21.389
completely unless it’s the Super Bowl. I mean,
00:47:21.409 –> 00:47:25.570
you can’t get in. Or, you know, some major, well,
00:47:25.650 –> 00:47:28.469
I don’t know, almost every major sport now. The
00:47:28.469 –> 00:47:32.849
good teams are always full. Yeah. So it depends
00:47:32.849 –> 00:47:36.300
on who you’re following. Yeah. I guess. Yeah.
00:47:36.599 –> 00:47:46.480
So did we fall off of the conversation? I like
00:47:46.480 –> 00:47:51.519
that. I like your analogy to the game that that
00:47:51.519 –> 00:47:55.519
did trigger a change in my mind about the whole
00:47:55.519 –> 00:47:59.139
game, the system, the game of going to a protest,
00:47:59.199 –> 00:48:03.659
of having protests. Were there any. protests
00:48:03.659 –> 00:48:08.760
that were actually game changers. I mean, that
00:48:08.760 –> 00:48:12.440
actually affected a change in the system as a
00:48:12.440 –> 00:48:17.800
whole. So does it matter that there were 100
00:48:17.800 –> 00:48:21.219
people or 1 ,000 people at this location? Did
00:48:21.219 –> 00:48:26.679
it make an effect? Yeah. Do you know? I know.
00:48:27.530 –> 00:48:30.610
Martin Luther King Jr. was all about peaceful
00:48:30.610 –> 00:48:35.989
protests. And eventually, we all, the majority
00:48:35.989 –> 00:48:41.030
of the country now, treats darker -skinned people
00:48:41.030 –> 00:48:44.469
the same as lighter -skinned people. As a result
00:48:44.469 –> 00:48:49.309
of that, I think. Now, the question is, was it
00:48:49.309 –> 00:48:51.550
the result of that or the fact that they just
00:48:51.550 –> 00:48:53.389
finally read the Declaration of Independence
00:48:53.389 –> 00:48:57.969
and understood it? So it wasn’t the protests
00:48:57.969 –> 00:49:00.030
that were trying to make people understand all
00:49:00.030 –> 00:49:03.110
men are created equal. Men and women, people,
00:49:03.250 –> 00:49:07.849
transgender are created equal. You’ve got all
00:49:07.849 –> 00:49:14.389
kinds of different things. But you have, I don’t
00:49:14.389 –> 00:49:16.110
know that the protests affected that at all.
00:49:18.530 –> 00:49:23.250
So we’re venerating a man, giving him a whole
00:49:23.250 –> 00:49:27.670
day. every year as a national holiday and closing
00:49:27.670 –> 00:49:32.250
the banks, and he didn’t even do anything. He
00:49:32.250 –> 00:49:38.070
was just a squeaky wheel. Well, that’s all protests
00:49:38.070 –> 00:49:41.090
are, a squeaky wheel. They’re trying to be more
00:49:41.090 –> 00:49:45.349
noisy, more attention -gathering, so that you
00:49:45.349 –> 00:49:47.769
can pay attention to what necessarily needs to
00:49:47.769 –> 00:49:54.099
be seen. Does that help? So that was a question.
00:49:54.219 –> 00:49:57.139
Does it help? Did it help that there were protesters
00:49:57.139 –> 00:50:00.880
on Harvard’s campus and Oxford and everywhere?
00:50:01.099 –> 00:50:04.239
Yeah. On the National Mall when Martin Luther
00:50:04.239 –> 00:50:06.440
King made his famous, I have a dream speech that
00:50:06.440 –> 00:50:09.239
he just made up at the moment. You know, that
00:50:09.239 –> 00:50:14.679
I have a dream. I mean, that made a difference.
00:50:15.019 –> 00:50:19.260
The words he said that everyone knows that phrase
00:50:19.260 –> 00:50:24.369
and it means something. to everybody. Or it can
00:50:24.369 –> 00:50:29.210
mean something to everyone. But that didn’t change.
00:50:30.130 –> 00:50:36.389
That in itself didn’t change anything. A related
00:50:36.389 –> 00:50:42.909
question is does writing your congressman, your
00:50:42.909 –> 00:50:44.969
senator and your governor, writing them letters
00:50:44.969 –> 00:50:48.210
about how you individually want them to vote
00:50:48.210 –> 00:50:51.090
on an issue or a bill or something. Does that
00:50:51.090 –> 00:50:58.150
change anything either? Do they listen to you?
00:50:58.269 –> 00:51:00.869
Do they listen to the people? Or do they do whatever
00:51:00.869 –> 00:51:03.769
they want? Even if they tally them all together.
00:51:04.050 –> 00:51:06.989
So if they get one letter and one letter says,
00:51:07.130 –> 00:51:11.289
you know, I just, I like orange jello and not
00:51:11.289 –> 00:51:14.469
green. That doesn’t mean anything, one person.
00:51:14.690 –> 00:51:17.050
Even if a thousand people, 10 million people
00:51:17.050 –> 00:51:20.010
write in. and say, this is my opinion on this,
00:51:20.070 –> 00:51:23.250
and they tally it together, he’s still going
00:51:23.250 –> 00:51:25.010
to make his own decision. That’s the representative
00:51:25.010 –> 00:51:27.489
democracy we live in. He’s the representative.
00:51:27.690 –> 00:51:30.170
His decision is going to be made. And if he’s
00:51:30.170 –> 00:51:34.949
swayed, he or she is swayed by the millions of
00:51:34.949 –> 00:51:38.090
people saying what they say, rather than logic,
00:51:38.289 –> 00:51:42.409
using his own logic in the situation, then it
00:51:42.409 –> 00:51:45.780
doesn’t, that’s democracy. That’s just… rule
00:51:45.780 –> 00:51:50.539
of the majority. And I think that’s the wrong
00:51:50.539 –> 00:51:53.219
move. So it’s the wrong move to listen to protesters.
00:51:53.940 –> 00:51:56.559
The right move is to do the next right thing,
00:51:56.599 –> 00:52:00.639
really. To make sure that it logically makes
00:52:00.639 –> 00:52:02.659
sense, that it’s under your understanding, your
00:52:02.659 –> 00:52:05.380
full understanding. So a protest that comes up
00:52:05.380 –> 00:52:08.739
trying to be heard, they’d be better off if you
00:52:08.739 –> 00:52:12.219
did a debate, if they just had a discussion.
00:52:15.059 –> 00:52:17.619
And so that’s why I guess that’s the way I would
00:52:17.619 –> 00:52:19.559
use protest. That’s what we’ve been talking about,
00:52:19.619 –> 00:52:21.039
too, is talk with each other.
Do you have a minute? 
Leave a comment